Public Demand: Who wants to see Titans of TH, RD, BoB clashing?

[Combat Opinion Staff]

Well I don't mind if my opponent buys big arty, it costs so much and is so slow. But non-the-less, I will change my rules to panther 76.

[ June 14, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[Combat Opinion Staff]

So, my question becomes...

Why do you want unlimited rules if everything you buy falls under the Panther/76 rules? If you don't want anything ultra-big then why not just go with the Panther76 rules and outrule it. You'll still haev access to all the stuff you say you want to buy.

I encourage my opponents to buy big stuff, that is the idea.

Swamp

[Redwolf]

Fionn, I read most AARs posted with the TH results and I'd say it is extremly unlikely any of the TH crowd people comes with a King Tiger.

Last time I tried the King Tiger trick on swamp, he punished me, without 17pdr equipment and no AFV heavier than a Cromwell, without me making an actual mistake with the KT.

Edit: swamp posted himself while I was writing under detraction.

[ June 14, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[MajorTaktik]

Hello Fionn,

90% of the Ladder games I play, some rule set or other is used to limit super heavy armor/arty. Those times unlimited purchases were used, it was either not at my suggestion, or against a long time opponent/friend where we both knew what to expect going in and there were no Cheezy surprises unleashed. Though, Scipio scared me a few armor battles ago when I encountered veteran KTs and JTs on a very open, very big map with wonderful Tiger Perches It wasn't expected, but Pete's a friend and honorable fellow, so I didn't feel cheated at all . However, I did gripe somewhat

Also, in all the ladder games I've played (few in comparison to some of the fellows out there), I used GJ only once. Never used FJ or VG in a Ladder QB. The vast majority of the time, I use basic rifle infantry, but sometimes I go exotic and use Heer motorized rifle . But that isn't often because I play the Allies a lot. Once again, its almost always American rifle infantry. Never used Gliders or Paras in a Ladder QB game.

Concerning arty, I use Scipio's arty rules almost exclusively. They are more involved than other rule sets, but they virtually eliminate arty duels and having to always face 150/155. Before Scipio's arty rules came out, I would house rule arty restrictions (ex: no more than 400 points, nothing bigger than 120mm).

The new opponents I play in ladder QBs tend to use VG, FJ, Brit AB and American AB. However, thankfully Scipio's arty rules are getting better known, so arty imbalances are few and far between now when using this rule set.

I guess I am saying in my comparatively limited experience, I seldom play unlimited purchases, and those times I do, it is against an opponent that is a respected friend. I can not speak for the hundreds of other players on the ladders, obviously, so perhaps the unlimited purchase QB ladder game is a common occurence. But it is my bet the good players make those who use super heavy armor and artillery pay for relying on those material crutches.

No doubt there are lots of ladder players that frequently max out on the best stuff, but in turn, the ladder players I gravitate towards are purists like myself and enjoy basic OOBs. We are both ladder players, because what commander doesn't like his victories recognized, but also historical players, because like myself, they have no doubt studied history and war gamed for a few decades.

Craig

[skelley]

I don't think I have bought a KT since my 10th Tcp game and I have never bought a super Pershing. As for arty.....I don't care if my opponent buys 155VT or 240mm in an ME. I don't care what arty my opponent buys. If you keep your forces still long enough to let them get artied then you deserved to get your forces decimated. What I have a problem with is germans being allowed t o buy more arty than they would be in a CA game. In your new balance rules you say relying on large arty is a crutch, but I think relying on a bunch of smaller caliber spotters is just as big of a crutch. BTW, I rarely buy higher than 120mm.

[Treeburst155]

Swamp and Major Taktiks' battles are approved. That's four of eight and none have gone "unlimited". Keep in mind that the Special Exclusions can place limits on the "unlimited" ruleset very easily. Scipio's arty rules could be spelled out here for example.

Now for my King Tiger anecdote. I bought two KT's so I could roll right over the enemy. One teeny weenie gamey little Bofors caused gun damage to both KTs. Never again will I buy KTs.

Big arty's a different story. I would rule it out of my scenario if I were playing. It appears everyone has done that so far.

4 more to go! I'll send the forms out to catch the last few, who probably aren't even reading the thread.

Treeburst155 out.

[skelley]

I don't think I have bought a KT since my 10th Tcp game and I have never bought a super Pershing. As for arty.....I don't care if my opponent buys 155VT or 240mm in an ME. I don't care what arty my opponent buys. If you keep your forces still long enough to let them get artied then you deserved to get your forces decimated. What I have a problem with is germans being allowed t o buy more arty than they would be in a CA game. In your new balance rules you say relying on large arty is a crutch, but I think relying on a bunch of smaller caliber spotters is just as big of a crutch. BTW, I rarely buy higher than 120mm.

[Treeburst155]

Both sides' arty percentages are individually adjustable for this tourney. There's nothing saying the Germans have to have the same arty percentage as the Allies.

I'm not worried about balance since players don't know which side they will play. This fact will make the battles fairly even I'm sure. The scoring system can handle any slight imbalance.

Treeburst155 out.

[skelley]

"Does anyone see where I'm coming from with this? I'd be very interested indeed in hearing people's opinions about this ( I think it comes down to a divide between "game players" ( who may gravitate towards ladders more) and "historical players" ( who, while they might play to win, are more interested in trying to be a bit historically believable while doing so)."

I have to say, this theory annoys me to no end. I know you aren't attacking ladder players but you can't just throw a grenade into our camp and say "no offense". Those not on ladders love to sit on their lofty perches and look down on us lowly ladder players and say "Ah....Look at the gamey peasants, they sure are amusing". There are gonna be plenty of differences of opinions on the way these battles are gonna be played but to act like your way is the only way and that all else is gamey is just plain wrong.

Most ladder players gravitate towards more historically correct battles after they have played for a few months. Most newbs come in buying the biggest arty and tanks they can but soon learn that a better player will almost always beat these choices through skill.

BTW I have played swamp 20 times and his arty has never been over 120mm .

I'm not trying to flame you fionn but I have heard this stuff way too much and it gets under my skin. Those of us in ladders play rules the same as you non ladder types.

[Fionn]

Skelley,

It sounds to me like you are lashing out at me instead of lashing out at all the dumb a**es who actually put down ladder players etc.

I'm just saying they play the game differently than I do. Am I right? No. Are they right? No. We just prefer different game types.

So, and I say this with no malice, sometimes we lash out at the wrong person because we can't lay our hands on the folks who are saying what I said AND putting ladder players down at the same time.

I'm just pointing out that different players like different styles of games. Hell, ladder players can, justifiably, bitch about my dislike for MEs and unlimited purchase rules. After all, if the game allows it who am I to say it isn't 100% cool?

So, I will take your post as being one you should rather have directed to others who actually said those things ( which I was most careful NOT to say).

P.s. I'd like to say thanks for the reasonable responses from everyone ( even Skelley... I know JUST what it is like to be passionate about something and end up telling off the wrong guy ).

Peace, all.

[Treeburst155]

I always ASSUMED ladder players were gamey. I thought it would be great fun to watch Wreck get torn apart in the Wild Bill tourney because of the double-blind human designed scenarios. I admired him for being willing to give it a go however.

Then, much to my absolute amazement, Wreck cleaned up in that tournament. His performance was head & shoulders above the rest. So much for assumptions.

The battles outlined above sound very ungamey to me too. After the Wreck experience, I'm not surprised.

I'm sending the Parameters Form out now. Disregard if your battle is already approved, unless you want to change it.

Treeburst155 out.

[Combat Opinion Staff]

[ June 15, 2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[Combat Opinion Staff]

Fionn,

I think you feel the big stuff dominates the battlefield and takes little skill to use. I say "I think" because I've heard you say before that the bigger arty takes more skill to use because it is slow. Well, I think you are wrong about the bigger stuff dominating. This is why most ladder players I see don't use your rules. From what I see at TH, there needs to be rules making Ubertanks and big arty mandatory if it is every going to be used.

As for your idea of ladder players. You are wrong, and I don't know where you got the idea from.

Swamp

[ June 15, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Combat Opinion Staff ]

[Treeburst155]

I think in the early days of CMBO, when everyone was a rookie, the ladders were more gamey simply because newbies often aren't conscious of gamey issues. I was gamey as could be, and thought I was just using superior tactics.

Those of us who did ladder play in the early days, then quit, still have that mistaken impression of gamey stuff on ladders. We just ASSUME the ladders to be gamey based on our ancient experience with them. I'm convinced this is not the case now among the ladder old timers.

Treeburst155 out.

[SurlyBen]

Well, BoB is more about a community that happens to also have a ladder. So I suppose I count as a ladder player. Other than my preference for small battles, I happily play just about any type of battle under any restrictions my opponent cares to name. I consider it an ethical obligation to my opponent try my best to win, but I that obligation doesn't extend to setup types and negotiation. That is, I don't start trying to win at the negotiation stage.

As for things like Uber tanks, I always like it when my opponent buys them. That's one of the many things infantry is for.

I dunno. Wine for playing CM. I'd still be here even if every battle was me attacking a battalion with a platoon of conscripts.

Treeburst: I'm a bit busy this weekend, so I'll try and get my setup done tomorrow.

[skelley]

I play ladder because I like seeing a record of what I have done and getting some kind of measurable way to asses my skill. I play many non ladder games. I sometimes go to combat mission HQ to pick up games. I like the game and do see it as a game but I do play by rules and try to make it historcally correct. Do I know exactly what the OOBs are: no. but I do know what was more common than what was not. Sure I like to win, who doesn't? I don't have preset ways of how a map should look or how big it should be. We play QBs where the comp. makes the choice so that we are 100% sure that the map is not tailored to ones playing style. We just allow for 1 map reject each because who wants to start a game already knowing that you have lost, or that you gotta pull a rabbit out a hat to get a minor victory. I see no difference in my game parameters compared with most of the people I play at TH or at CMHQ. I am willing to play anybody with almost any parameters as you well know through our negotiations

[Broken]

Treeburst155,

Do we have a schedule for this tourney? I am out of town next week through July 1, so if I don't respond to any deadlines before then, that is why.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I think in the early days of CMBO, when everyone was a rookie, the ladders were more gamey simply because newbies often aren't conscious of gamey issues. I was gamey as could be, and thought I was just using superior tactics.

Those of us who did ladder play in the early days, then quit, still have that mistaken impression of gamey stuff on ladders. We just ASSUME the ladders to be gamey based on our ancient experience with them. I'm convinced this is not the case now among the ladder old timers.

Treeburst155 out.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement Mike. I do believe that when i was a newbie on the ladder i also played "Gamey" but without realising it. It is only after being part of this community for several years and being a regular PBEM player that I began to learn what i was doing wrong in other peoples eyes. I also learned from watching other players use these tactics against me. Nowadays, i think of some previous PBEM battles i played and cringe at some of the things i did.....but at the time i thought i was doing well.

However, at the end of the day, gameyness itself is still very much in the eye of the beholder. Each of us have a tolerance level to such things...some more than others.

CDIC

[Treeburst155]

I'm still waiting for three more Battle Parameters forms before I devote more time to this tourney. I need one from Ghost, Fionn, and SurlyBen.

Treeburst155 out.

[MajorTaktik]

I will also be away from July 12th to July 27th.

Craig

[Treeburst155]

The deadline for Battle Parameters forms is 1900 hours on Sunday, June 23rd (GMT -5). If I have received six or eight forms by then we will hold the tourney with those people who submitted their parameters. If I have five or seven completed forms I will add GravesRegistration of Tournament House fame to get the necessary even number. He has expressed interest.

At this point I have five Parameters forms plus GravesRegistration to make six. This means the tourney will happen even if SurlyBen, Ghost, and Fionn do not send in their battles.

GravesRegistration,

If, after the deadline, I have an odd number of players (not including you), you are in. We will know in 45 hours or so. Right now I have five.

Treeburst155 out.

[ June 21, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Ghost of the 90th]

Treeburst,

Sorry, been away on vacation for awhile. I will fill out my form and send it in ASAP.

Ghost358th

[Treeburst155]

Only 21 hours left to send your battle parameters to me at: mikeman@cablelynx.com

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Only five hours to go! Right now I have six players. I still need battle parameters from SurlyBen and Fionn.

GravesRegistration,

If only one of the above two send in their battle, you are in. If neither one of them do so, then you miss out. I must have an even number of players. Right now I'm at six.

Treeburst155 out.

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I must have an even number of players. Right now I'm at six.

You could invite skelley to make it even. He said earlier in the thread he wanted to play and he is definately a "titan"