Russian AA guns... my dilemma

[Kirill S.]

I pulled up a scenario in CMBB, the only scenario with Russian AA guns. The gun was listed as 85mm, genuinely Soviet, but the model seemed surprisingly German. With my own eyes I see a model of an 88 with a darker paint and a Soviet owner. Something is wrong. I remember from the old history books and one or two WW2 sims(IL2 Sturmovik) that the gun was not plagiarized by us or germans. For confirmation, I turned to Google and came here.

The photos on the above site didn't look anything like this.

(fullsize)

So here I am with a dilemma... are those guns captured and mislabeled, or is my computer playing tricks on me?

[Bullethead]

Many units, especially things that don't get used that much relatively speaking, don't have their own 3D model but use one from another unit, even a different nationality.

[Kirill S.]

those are completely different guns with completely different shapes... yet they have the exact same model

I'm DEEPLY confused.

[ November 13, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Kirill S. ]

[Guest Mike]

There isn't a model for the 85mm gun.

There are a number of little-used equipments for which no model has been made.

Instead BTS have used the model from some other weapon or vehicle as a "space filler" unitl the model is made.

Eg the model for the Itallian Cv3/33 (?? I thik - the little machine gun carrier) is a British Universal Carrier (ie a "Bren" carrier).

It looks silly, but it means yuo can use the Cv3/33. Similarly for the 85mm - it looks silly but at least yoo can use the gun.

Many such models will arrive with the patch - some won't.

[Kirill S.]

I wouldn't call the Soviet AA guns little used.... every piece of soviet machinery was mass-produced by the thousands

so from all this I conclude that BTS was too lazy to make a model, or what? They included the Sturmtiger which was "mass-produced" only to 18 machines, but the AA guns which were produced to 10671 units is replaced by a german model.......

my brain is going to blow

[Guest Mike]

The 85mm AA gun was little used in the type/scale/level of warfare CMBB is representing.

It certainly was mass produced - as was the B-17 for example, but neither were common in company-battalion level actions at the front line.

Calling BTS lazy isn't going to help much either.

they have a limted resource and they used it as they saw fit.

If you don't like that then you can buy the company or sell the game, or, my favourite, don't worry about it and enjoy the models when they do arrive!

[ November 13, 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Kirill S.]

ok, so none of the AA guns were used for antitank roles? they weren't used in defensive setups? when german tanks advanced, there weren't any?

This book has the following:

ºÞÜÐÝÔØàë áÞÑØàÐÛØ àÐ×àÞ×ÝÕÝÝëÕ äÞàÜØàÞÒÐÝØï, çÐáâÞ ÒÚÛîçÐÛØ Ò ÝØå âëÛÞÒØÚÞÒ Ø ÒÞÕÒÐÛØ ÛîÑëÜ ÞàãÖØÕÜ, ÚÞâÞàÞÕ ÜÞÓÛØ ÝÐ âÞâ ÜÞÜÕÝâ àÐ×ëáÚÐâì, áÛãçÐÛÞáì, çâÞ ÝÐ ßàïÜãî ÝÐÒÞÔÚã ãáâÐÝÐÒÛØÒÐÛØáì ÔÐÖÕ ×ÕÝØâÝëÕ ÞàãÔØï.

translated:

Commanders collected diverse units, often they mobilized the non-combat (reserve) troops and used any weapon possible, it happened that they used the anti-aircraft guns with direct aiming.

The guns certainly weren't used by standard companies, but it is certain that they were used with direct aimed fire on tanks or anything that was german... anything that shoots was used.

[Guest Mike]

Oh for heaven's sake read what I effen well wrote will you!!

I said they weren't COMMON!

anyone knows that the Russians used anything and everythign that was to hand when required, and your mis-reading of my post merely makes you look silly.

[Seanachai]

The loss of a bit of attitude will probably result in a far greater return in helpfulness.

edited to point out that I was not addressing Mike.

[ November 13, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Seanachai ]

[Kirill S.]

So when Germans came to Stalingrad, all the AA guns were simply abandoned?

[ November 13, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Kirill S. ]

[JonS]

Originally posted by Kirill S.:

So when Germans came to Stalingrad, all the AA guns were simply abandoned?

ok, the other approach wasn't working, so lets try this one:

The russians didn't really have any 85mm AA guns. They were all captured 88mms. This little known fact has been hidden until now by the communist hierachy for reasons of national prestige. But luckily for us BFC weren't too lazy to ferret out the truth for us and include it in their game.

There, how's that? Feel better now? Good, lets move along on this issue then until the patch comes out shall we?

Regards

JonS

[Kirill S.]

ok, what about the 25mm and the 37mm?

[JonS]

both captured.

[Kirill S.]

I don't believe it... can you give me some sources please?

[JonS]

Weren't you paying attention? I said this information had been suppressed by the Soviet hierachy, so it hasn't had a chance to get into the mainstream. Not even Glantz knew about it. In fact, when he was asked about it last week he responded by saying "Well, fvck me! That explains the Soviet success at Kursk. Excuse me, if have to go now and rewrite my book."

As I said, BFC were the ones who uncovered this, and chose to include it in their games rahter than just going with the longstanding myths. The reference is the game.

Regards

JonS

[Guest Mike]

I think I'll bow out of this and leave it to the masters of the genre.

pulls up deck chair....opens beeer.....prepares to take notes......waves to Mom.....

[gnuif]

Erm. The screenshot you posted says it's a 37mm gun in the unit info panel. The photo from the book shows an 85mm gun if I'm not mistaking. And the gun in the photo actually bears quite a lot of resemblance to the german Flak 36.

[blackbellamy]

look kirill i don't think you get the point

the sturmtiger is sexy

the 85AA is not

the company didn't have to put in the un-sexy 85AA in the game. why? cause they're not sony or disney and they don't have a kubelwagen full of graphics people, so they could have said screw it, let's not put in the stupid 85, because we can't spare the time to do the model of a rarely used weapon in the types of combat we want to portray, but instead they went hey, we'll put it in, and give it another model, something that looks close, and maybe we or some modder will get to it later.

you don't have to play the game in extreme close-up, and believe me, from a hundred yards out any gun just looks like a little stick with a bunch of ants around it, all getting surpressed and **** from the super sexy and mean sturmtiger, so does it really matter all that much?

[billcarey]

Bear in mind as well that a different model requires different textures. So, if there is a finite amount of space on a CD (and there is) you can only have so many models and textures. It would look a whole lot sillier to have a Sturmtiger represented by a Hummel than one AA gun by another.

My 2¢.

- B.

Edited becaus I can't speel for beans.

[ November 13, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: billcarey ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by billcarey:

Edited becaus I can't speel for beans.

ain't nuthin' wrong with yer spellin' of "for beans" as I 'kin see.

But yer spellin' of "spell" leaves somethin' to be desired!!

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by JonS:

Weren't you paying attention? I said this information had been suppressed by the Soviet hierachy, so it hasn't had a chance to get into the mainstream. Not even Glantz knew about it. In fact, when he was asked about it last week he responded by saying "Well, fvck me! That explains the Soviet success at Kursk. Excuse me, if have to go now and rewrite my book."

As I said, BFC were the ones who uncovered this, and chose to include it in their games rahter than just going with the longstanding myths. The reference is the game.

I have to suppose you're being completely serious. That's quite a remarkable claim- if that's true then I was very wrong when I thought I was already as impressed as I would be.

Is there a specific thread announcing this, erm discovery, or debunkery, or whatever?

Eden

[gnuif]

lol

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

Weren't you paying attention? I said this information had been suppressed by the Soviet hierachy, so it hasn't had a chance to get into the mainstream. Not even Glantz knew about it. In fact, when he was asked about it last week he responded by saying "Well, fvck me! That explains the Soviet success at Kursk. Excuse me, if have to go now and rewrite my book."

As I said, BFC were the ones who uncovered this, and chose to include it in their games rahter than just going with the longstanding myths. The reference is the game.

I have to suppose you're being completely serious. That's quite a remarkable claim- if that's true then I was very wrong when I thought I was already as impressed as I would be.

Is there a specific thread announcing this, erm discovery, or debunkery, or whatever?

Eden</font>

[Tripps]

Originally posted by JonS:

Weren't you paying attention? I said this information had been suppressed by the Soviet hierachy, so it hasn't had a chance to get into the mainstream. Not even Glantz knew about it. In fact, when he was asked about it last week he responded by saying "Well, fvck me! That explains the Soviet success at Kursk. Excuse me, if have to go now and rewrite my book."

As I said, BFC were the ones who uncovered this, and chose to include it in their games rahter than just going with the longstanding myths. The reference is the game.

Regards

JonS

lol

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Can anyone tell me what the German word for gullible is?

Alternatively, the German word for humourless?

Regards

Jim R.