manchildstein (ii) Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 i'm wondering what anyone thinks of authors reviewing their own works over at the scenario depot. in my case, the reasons are three-fold 1) of course, to get more exposure for my own scenarios. 2) to recommend my favorites 3) to 'get the ball rolling' so to speak in the hopes that others will chime in with their own reviews. it seems like so few of the scenarios get reviewed, that if we had self-review it might cause a kind of snowballing effect where others would beging chiming in. so what do you all think? thanks, andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 I am totally against that. There is a space for the author to add comments, and the review should be all the author needs to add. How could I (or you) as the author decide how good a scenario is for PBEM or against the AI? Sorry, but this is extremely dodgy, and likely to destroy the credibility of the review process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 Germanboy is exactly right. As a designer, I use the reviews as feedback, and I can hardly give myself feedback. This smacks too much of Chicago politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 Ever heard of designers notes? WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 No I don’t, but what about the scenario testers? Is that fair? But I do wish more people would take the time and review the scenarios that they have played. That is what makes the Depot such a valuable resource. As of Friday 8/31/01 of 778 scenarios listed at the depot 169 scenarios have been reviewed and of those 169 scenarios there has been 280 individual reviews So lets get those review’s in ! Scenario Depot [ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Bigdog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99: Ever heard of designers notes? WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What good are they if no one bothers to download the scenario because there are no reviews? \I like the new feature - other battles by this author. Never noticed it before! Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 I also like that 'other battles by this author' feature. I've used it more than once with good results. But looking at 2) in the first message of this thread, how about a new feature: recommended scenarios? People could simply list some scenarios they've liked and possibly add some free form text to tell why. If some scenario author would want to recommend 5 of his several own battles, ok. If someone else wants to recommend 3 good tank battles, so be it. Top5 small battles for PBEM recommended by XYZ. And so on. I think this would get far more entries than current reviews if it was as EASY for people to do as, say, writing messages to this forum. And I'm sure many people would find good battles they've never heard of before. The simplest way of doing this would be by using the Forum part of Scenario Depot, but I'm not sure if people ever read it as there are so few messages to read. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted September 3, 2001 Author Share Posted September 3, 2001 as far as my own favorites, i'll just edit my notes. thanks for the feedback. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Germanboy is exactly right. As a designer, I use the reviews as feedback, and I can hardly give myself feedback.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You gave yourself feedback when you designed the thing, didn't you? I didn't notice the author's notes section before; I don't see a problem with authors reviewing their own work, as long as they use their real names and specify that it is an author's review. I wouldn't give any of my own work a 10 in all categories; I think most authors would be honest enough to rate their own work accordingly. That being the case, what is the harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: That being the case, what is the harm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well none, if everybody went to read the reviews - my gut feeling though is that many people just go by the top 10 lists. I just don't think it is right, and I don't agree that I reviewed my work when I did it, at least not in terms of the Depot reviews. I have a few scenarios on my HD that will never see the light of Der Kessel, because of a gut feel that they are 'not right'. Others I have tweaked a lot based on feedback. But I never thought 'I think this will be a 5-7 on the PBEM scale' - when the testers said it is okay I went to publish it. I can't tell you myself whether 'Into the East' is a 10, or a 7 for PBEM. Whether the map is a 5 or a 9. I leave that to people who played it, and who did not work on it (on and off) for months, but who come to it fresh, who play a lot, and therefore have a frame of reference that they use to compare. Remember, everbody will tell you that their child is: a) the brightest the cutest c) the loveliest baby in the world. And they are all right, too. Leave the review to the players, and stick to the notes as a designer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 I think GB is right about not reviewing your own work. It would be nice if more people reviewed. I try to get my opponents to give reviews after we finish our game. The more reviews the better of a resource the Depot becomes We all know there are some really great battles as well as some turkeys so tell it like it is and post your review at Scenario Depot As far as getting your scenarios seen I am working on getting screens shots out as fast as I can (Big job). I have also started work on 1st time designers getting there shots done also. I have seen some reel sweet maps too, Battle for Seebach, Battle of San Pietro & Just a freaking fantastic looking map in the Bridge at Remagen. All worth a look. BTW maybe its time for a shameless plug for Big Dogs Big Valley Available at Big Valley With screen shots [ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Bigdog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99: Ever heard of designers notes? WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> you mean all that chicken scratch I have on any piece of loose paper next to my monitor and all over my desk. Then again one day it was allll gone!! :eek: wife unit = lost hours of surfing for data. *sob* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 Sorry if this feels repetetive, but I'll try again: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Germanboy: Well none, if everybody went to read the reviews - my gut feeling though is that many people just go by the top 10 lists. I just don't think it is right, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Many people DO go by the top ten lists. Almost all new scenarios I've played during the last couple of months were from those Scenario Depot lists. I have no problem with that, as I do understand people would rather play the good battles. The problem IMO is that many awesome battles never appear on those lists. The only reason may be that no review has been written yet. The current review system also doesn't guarantee in anyway that some review makes sense at all. Still, all points count just the same. Someone could rate a scenario badly simply because he lost. That was the reason why I suggested the recommended scenarios feature. Instead of the current automatically calculated lists based on review scores, people could just write their own top ten lists or whatever. Then other people could see if some list has a scenario they've liked. And if yes, then see what else that person is recommending. The problem is not the lists, but the way they are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlowMotion: That was the reason why I suggested the recommended scenarios feature. Instead of the current automatically calculated lists based on review scores, people could just write their own top ten lists or whatever. Then other people could see if some list has a scenario they've liked. And if yes, then see what else that person is recommending. The problem is not the lists, but the way they are made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You don't get an argument from me - I think that would be a great addition. I think the current idea is that the occasional bad or glorious review that is unwarranted will come out in the wash, with enough reviews. The depot has not been around that long, so it needs time to stock up on reviews. At the moment there are certainly problems with the lists, because of the low number of scenarios reviewed. Be that as it may, I think your suggestion has a lot going for it too. Have you made it on the Depot's forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 I do understand that given enough time and reviews the good scenarios would stand out. But how long would that take? I think in some recent post Scenario Depot webmaster mentioned that less than one third of the scenarios they list, have been reviewed. CMBB is not that far away and I believe quite a few CMBO players will move on once they get this new gem installed. I've noticed that some web sites have MP3 playlists selected by various people. There are comments on why certain song is on the list. I've found some of those selections quite interesting. Maybe something like that could work for scenarios as well, I dunno. I haven't suggested this idea at Scenario Depot forum as so few people seem to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 Well Slowmotion Admiral Keith uses it and he is the 1 that counts Keith is very responsive to suggestion on the SD Forum so make your suggestions to him there and I am sure he will respond quickly. If you have some favorite scenarios you want to plug list them in the SD General Forum. I myself list Big Dogs Top 10 Over 3 which is the 10 top scoring scenarios with more than 3 reviews IMHO the true top 10 Also when I do screen shots for the SD I mention note worthy battles that I come across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Keth Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 Gang, I'm keeping an eye on all of these posts (while catching up at work) and taking careful note of everything everyone is saying. I definitely like the concept of Suggested Scenarios; the tough part is crow-barring into the existing system. I'm taking a little bit longer to implement ideas simply due to the fact that I'm doing a bit more careful architecting and engineering on the back-end, as well as looking to the future of how any particular feature will fit in the site on the long-term. As for the points made above, personally I'm against the designer reviewing their own products. Having been a Senior Technical Writer for 10+ years, it's a solid 'rule-of-thumb' that you don't review your own work; you are too close to it and may not see everything that an objective eye may catch. However, the CMSD system is really the author's and the reviewer's to make of it what they will. I'll create the mechanism for the system while everone else can define the rules by which it is used. The Author Notes should ideally be the place where you put your thought of the How's and Why's of the nature of the scenario. Background information, motivation, historical bits, and the like can all be put there without affecting the overall score. By the by, there are over 300+ reviews (battles and operations) for over 882 battles and operations (less 45 that I still am obtaining permission (Franko! Schrullenhaft!)). Remarkably good for the short lifetime of the CMSD, all thanks to the CM community. SLM, I like the idea of Suggested Scenarios, and I will attempt to implement it, but it's about 3rd on the List O' Things To Do. I'll take a look at the MP3 lists and see if that paradigm will fit into the CMSD's framework. Dang...train of thought got derailed...oh, well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 Admiral Keth, First, I have to say 'Wow', it is a great site. Awesome concept and much needed given the now immense number of scenarios avaliable. I did notice one thing, when looking at 'The Lists': the 'Top 10 Scenarios in X' lists are dominated by many newer scenarios with one rave review. Wouldn't it be more fitting to require a minimum of 3 or so reviews to make that list? That way a rating of 10 in one category could not propel comparatively untired scenarios off of the list. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 wwb_99: That's definitely one of the problems of the current calculated lists. You can tweak how the lists are calculated, but no matter how you calculate, the system always favors some scenarios. That's why I suggested adding those user definable lists. Totally subjective opinions of one person, but allows people to simply say "These scenarios are really worth trying, if you want tank battle on a big map" or "Small infantry fight, no tanks? Try these...". I'm positive that people would find great new battles this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 SlowMotion what’s to stop you from posting your favorite battles on the SD forum? I think that as more reviews are made you will find that the system works great. Really sweet little gems should be talked up, and as people play them reviews come in and they’re ranking will move up. Again you should make your suggestions to Keith on the SD forum I do agree with you & WW_99 that there is a problem with The List as it stands now. You will not get a true rating until you have 3 or more reviews. Right 1 great 1st review and it moves to the top of the list That’s why I started Top 10 over 3 list that I do by hand when I work on the screen shots and list on the SD Forum. [ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Bigdog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 I did write Admiral Keth about this. It could work just fine using the SD forum. I first thought about some other way, because that forum seems to get only maybe 1-2 new messages per day, probably because most people using that site never read the forum. The Lists are much more widely used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 By principle I absolutely refuse to play any scenario where the author reviews his own work. If the scenario author feels he needs to plug his scenario then do so on this forum. Reviewing your own stuff is lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Allowing people to create their own top x lists and share them through the depot is a great idea. Individuals over averages! -marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Mauldin Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 I started to review a scenario one time but really didn't feel qualified to do it based on just one playing. I rarely play a scenario more then once, since with FOW you already know all the surprises in the game. Do you guys play a scenario more than once to review it, or do you play it only one time and then review it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Mauldin: Do you guys play a scenario more than once to review it, or do you play it only one time and then review it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Once that is usually enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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