Armor Useage at Stallingrad

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I hear of infantry fights in the streets and sewars quite a bit, but what of tanks? I know Hoth attempted to break through the encirclement (to the south?), but those battles were around Stallingrad, not in them.

So how much were tanks used in the city durring the fighting? Could one expect to see a toon or coy of 'em, or just the occasional one or two supporting infantry operations? What about flamethrower tanks and assault guns? They seem suited to this kind of work if properly supported.

[Berlichtingen]

note to self... type stuff before hitting post

Many tanks were used withing the city.

Example... 14. Panzer Division was part of the assault on the Tractor Works

[ August 31, 2002, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Berlichtingen ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I thought about 14 Brummbars were sent to Stalingrad for their specialised assault configuration. Of course, I'm only going from memory & I'm sure someone will correct me if I've stuffed up with my recollection.

Regards

Jim R.

[ August 31, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ]

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

I thought about 14 Brummbars were sent to Stalingrad for their specialised assault configuration. Of course, I'm only going from memory & I'm sure someone will correct me if I've stuffed up with my recollection.

....

The corrrection cometh. The Brummbar was developed after the German experience in Stalingrad (S. Zaloga). The Germans did realize, however, that they needed a large gun (bigger than the 105mm) SPG in an armored casemate- something they did not have at the time.

So, they created 12 "Sturminfanteriegshultz". These comprised of a 150mm howitzer mounted in an armored casemate on a PzKW III hull. If I remember correctly, most- if not all- were lost in the Stalingrad campaign.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Thanks Zitadelle. I knew something assault gun like with a bloody big gun was sent to Stalingrad, but obviously not Brummbars. Thanks for the errata.

Regards

Jim R.

[Chad Harrison]

Never mind this post entirely

Chad Harrison

[ August 31, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Chad Harrison ]

[pzvg]

popular legend (which I am unable to confirm)

Has T-34's being constructed at one end of the Tractor works and going into action at the other end.

(which sounds highly improbable, until you recall the Soviets were masters of the "highly improbable")

[mcgivney]

Originally posted by pzvg:

popular legend (which I am unable to confirm)

Has T-34's being constructed at one end of the Tractor works and going into action at the other end.

(which sounds highly improbable, until you recall the Soviets were masters of the "highly improbable")

Good thing the Soviet's didn't have OHSA.

[Gud]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

I thought about 14 Brummbars were sent to Stalingrad for their specialised assault configuration. Of course, I'm only going from memory & I'm sure someone will correct me if I've stuffed up with my recollection.

....

The corrrection cometh. The Brummbar was developed after the German experience in Stalingrad (S. Zaloga). The Germans did realize, however, that they needed a large gun (bigger than the 105mm) SPG in an armored casemate- something they did not have at the time.

So, they created 12 "Sturminfanteriegshultz". These comprised of a 150mm howitzer mounted in an armored casemate on a PzKW III hull. If I remember correctly, most- if not all- were lost in the Stalingrad campaign.</font>

[tom5172]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I hear of infantry fights in the streets and sewars quite a bit, but what of tanks? I know Hoth attempted to break through the encirclement (to the south?), but those battles were around Stallingrad, not in them.

So how much were tanks used in the city durring the fighting? Could one expect to see a toon or coy of 'em, or just the occasional one or two supporting infantry operations? What about flamethrower tanks and assault guns? They seem suited to this kind of work if properly supported.

Tanks were used in the fighting but a majority was called to Army Group South (I think).

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Thanks for shedding a little light on this guys.

[Thomas Norton]

According to William Craig (Enemy At The Gates) and Paul Carell (Hitler Moves East), the 6th Army did have armor in the actual city.

The 16th Panzer Division was inside the suburbs of Stanlingrad. Both put the German 29th Motorized Division in the city as well. This unit had PzIII's attached, and appears to have had the last fueled panzers in Stalingrad, in that they were still moving, and had ammo on January 10th, when they were able to hold up the Russians at Cossack Hill, which allowed the three other shattered German divisons to actually retreat in the city, followed by the 29th.

[Mud]

Erickson (The Road to Stalingrad) also mentions tanks inside the city, e.g. page 404 cites a 62nd Army war diary noting "Up to two enemy companies with 30 tanks in support moving on `specialist houses'".

Page 408 notes that the remnants of one 13th Guards holed up in a building; after the survivors stalled a German column, tanks were used to demolish the building. The same page notes that inside Stalingrad itself, the Germans often used armor in this role -- the levelling of strongpoints after they've been identified by the infantry.

And page 410 notes that German tanks operated w/n 150 yards of the western bank of the Volga, where they could fire on Soviet reinforcements attempting to cross.

Page 412 states that "After 25 September... Eleven German divisions were arrayed before 62nd Army, three Panzer divisions (14th, 24th and 16th), two motorized (29th and 60th), six infantry divisions (71st, 79th, 94th, 100th, 295th and 389th). The 16th Panzer Division was on Chuikov's right flank, the 389th Infantry Division, moved out of reserve, in the Gorodishche-Razgulayayeva area, 295th Infantry Division reinforced with armour near Mamayev Kurgan, 71st and 76th Infantry Divisions in Stalingrad 1-i and the central landing stage, four divisions including 14th and 24th Panzer in the southern reaches of the city. For a new attack on the factory district the German command had also set about regrouping: the 71st Infantry Division, one of the crack divisions of the German Army, was to mount the attack on the Krasnyi Oktyabr factory settlement and the 100th J\"{a}ger Division was assigned to the attack on Mamayev Kurgan."

(Pardon my TeX...)

Description of the assault continues on 413, noting movement by 150 German tanks from Gorodischche and Razgulyayeva, up to 80 tanks going to Krasnyi Oktyabr, and so forth.

There are undoubtably more references there (I just looked at a few pages), but from that I'd conclude that there were rather nontrivial amounts of German armor involved within the city itself (and, although I didn't quote it, aircraft and arty support as well).

[JasonC]

The initial drive to encircle the city on the near side of the Volga involved 5 Panzer divisions and 4 motorized divisions in two prongs north and south, along with the bulk of 6th Army's infantry from the west directly. This fighting involved the mobile troops pushing through the suburban areas and into the built up city while the defenders were still pretty sparse.

The southern prong got into very built up areas and got involved in very heavy street fighting. The northern one got so far ahead of following troops that for a while there was a 20 mile stretch of Russian controlled territory between them and the rest of the German army. The northern group was fighting in mostly sururban areas, not built up central city.

After the initial coup de main failed and the city was invested, the armor was still involved. But the battle was not limited to the stereotype of built up "rats war" block clearing. The Russians also launched large scale counterattacks - sometimes a whole army - to try to relieve the city from the north, or to push the Germans back west in the city center and north. This included fighting in open terrain around the city, in the suburbs, and for Hill 102 at the edge of the city proper. German armor helped defend against these large counterattacks.

Then by October, the Germans had beaten off those attacks, the ring was tighter, and they had cleared the southern portion of the downtown. The fighting shifted to the factor district - the most famous period of the fighting, and the portion people think of as "Stalingrad fighting". The Russians put in armor in this period - e.g. the 84th tank brigade cross the Volga at night on 4 October. The Germans used armor to try to support the block clearing, and e.g. lost 16 tanks on 6 October.

In mid October, the Germans shifted from armor support of mostly infantry attacks to an attempt to use massed tanks in the middle of the city. The 14th and 24th Panzer divisions put in 200 tanks, with support from one infantry division. Over the next 3 days, they drove to the Volga and split the Russians in two, and brought the crossing sites under fire.

Russians continued to hold out in pockets on either side of their penetrations, but narrower areas. The fighting in the factory sectors burned on into November, with fresh Russians infiltrating by night and the Germans periodically mounting large scale operations that wiped out the new men. The Germans themselves went through an infantry division every 5 days. From mid October to mid November, the fighting within the city was that kind of infantry intensive attrition, with Russian holdouts in less than 10% of the city area and still contracting, but slowly. The offensive outside the city came after almost all of the city proper had been cleared.

The Germans had a lot of armor in the south, not just the 3 Panzer divisions with 6th Army (which were the 14th, 16th, and 24th). But most of it was not involved in the street fighting proper. Those three divisions were, and two more early on when the city was being surrounded.

Then two PDs (one Rumanian, 1st Rum. PD, the other 22nd Panzer) fought against the immediate Russian counterattack, and 3 more were brought up to help after that succeeded (6th, 11th and 17th Panzer - 6 and later 17 were in the relief attempt).

Meanwhile, there were 4 PDs in the south in AG "A" - 3rd, 13th, 23rd, and 5th SS (Viking). The 23rd was used as part of the relief attempt. The rest fought in the retreat around the Kuban penisula and sea of Azov, but not in the city.

Of 12 armor divisions above, 5 fought in the push to the city (while 4 others pushed into the Caucausus), 3 were involved in the heavy street fighting and were eventually destroyed in the pocket, 6 fought against the Russian counterattack outside the city in November or in the relief attempt in December, 3 were in the south but did not participate in the Stalingrad fighting.

I hope that helps. If I left any of them out, corrections would be welcome.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Thanks Jason. That's much closer to the answer I was looking for.

Thanks Guys!!