Bug/Inconsistencies List

[Tankist]

First of all, for a version 1.0 program, this game is very well done; no crash, no game killing bugs so far.

Congratulations to the programmers and the Beta Test team for an outstanding job!

Here are some observations I made:

BUGS

1. Bunker placement by the AI in 'free to setup forces' setup option.

The AI places its bunkers/pillboxes nearly all the time right on its own mapedge. Without any LOS to any VLs, without any regard to the terrain.

It simply arrays them on its own mapedge.

This seems to be a bug.

2. Routed teams displace other units.

In a scenario some 105mm howitzers were positioned in foxholes in the open plains. One of them was destroyed, and the surviving 2 men-team runs for nearest cover, in this case the foxhole of another, 30 meter away hidden howitzer.

It enters the foxhole and the hidden, emplaced, full-setup and camouflaged howitzer starts to move out of the foxhole to make place for the 2(!) men-team!

Well, the moving howitzer was spotted by the enemy (and fired at), it lost its camo-bonus and it needs 2 minutes to set-up new!

This, IMHO, qualifies as a bug; a routed team should not displace an emplaced gun.

Instead the program should use the same logic as with vehicles; a small vehicle can not push a large vehicle out of the way.

This bug is reproducible.

3. Covered Arcs and Hiding

A unit with a covered arc unhides, if an enemy unit (anywhere on the map) enters the covered arc, even if it has NO LOS to the enemy unit!

I had an at-gun hiding in woods with an covered arc/armor.

Enemy infantry was passing my by, some 50 m away.

Then, behind a ridge and out of view(!) of the at-gun, a tank entered the covered arc, obviously spotted by some of my other units.

The gun immediately unhides (for no apparent reason; no LOS means no shoot) and was seen by the infantry; one dead gun...

This bug is reproducible.

INCONSISTENCIES

1. TAC AI hesitant to fire

Often, the TacAI does not open up on enemy units that are visible and close enough.

E.g. in one game, 2 HMGs (lots of ammo, veterans and in command) in woods were facing a patch of scattered trees, 80 meters away.

The plan was, that if anything appears in the scattered trees, they should open up.

Then I gave an infantry squad order to advance to the treeline.

Two enemy squads opened up fire on my advancing squad...and the HMGs (with perfect LOS, no covered arcs, no other enemies in view, not surpressed) did NOTHING!

This often happens with normal infantry squads and guns too.

2. TAC AI abandons target order to fast.

The TacAI should be a little bit more 'sticky' to the 'Target' order.

As this order is a direct player-override, it should not be abandoned this fast.

It often happens, that I give a target order to a unit, hit GO and then the very first thing the unit does (in the first second) is to cancel my target order... to do nothing!

The enemy is still in LOS, there is still no other enemy in sight, the unit is still in command...so why was my direct fire order cancelled.

It should be more sticky IMHO.

That's it.

Maybe one of the guys from BATTLEFRONT finds the time to comment on these points?

Others are welcome too!

Thanks for listening

Tankist

[dalem]

I can definitely attest to the Inconsistancies. And if the answer is simply "You now have to use Covered Arcs to get your troops to fire" then that should have GD-well been a frikkin splash screen when you start the game up.

To the "reproducible" list I would add "bizarre AFV TacAI" behavior. I lose neough tanks to my own dumb mistakes, I don't need the TacAI moving tanks out of cover for no reason to get killed, or spinning butt-toward enemy.

-dale

[Hortlund]

I have one. But I'm not sure it would qualify as a bug.

When you import units from one quick battle to the other, they keep their old ammo load (often no ammo at all). There should be an option to refill ammo.

[Tankist]

Originally posted by dalem:

I can definitely attest to the Inconsistancies. And if the answer is simply "You now have to use Covered Arcs to get your troops to fire" then that should have GD-well been a frikkin splash screen when you start the game up.

...

I don't think so; covered arcs are only a way to restrict firing, as stated in the manual.

And, often units open up fire on their own and everything is fine...but quite often they do not.

Tankist

[dalem]

Originally posted by Tankist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

I can definitely attest to the Inconsistancies. And if the answer is simply "You now have to use Covered Arcs to get your troops to fire" then that should have GD-well been a frikkin splash screen when you start the game up.

...

I don't think so; covered arcs are only a way to restrict firing, as stated in the manual.

And, often units open up fire on their own and everything is fine...but quite often they do not.

Tankist</font>

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have seen all of these as well.

Originally posted by Tankist:

3. Covered Arcs and Hiding

A unit with a covered arc unhides, if an enemy unit (anywhere on the map) enters the covered arc, even if it has NO LOS to the enemy unit!

I had an at-gun hiding in woods with an covered arc/armor.

Enemy infantry was passing my by, some 50 m away.

Then, behind a ridge and out of view(!) of the at-gun, a tank entered the covered arc, obviously spotted by some of my other units.

The gun immediately unhides (for no apparent reason; no LOS means no shoot) and was seen by the infantry; one dead gun...

This bug is reproducible.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, or just a quirk of the engine, because the ambush command in CMBO worked the same way.

dalem:

To the "reproducible" list I would add "bizarre AFV TacAI" behavior. I lose neough tanks to my own dumb mistakes, I don't need the TacAI moving tanks out of cover for no reason to get killed, or spinning butt-toward enemy.

Yep. I had this happen twice in one game.

I had 2 jeeps sitting next to each other behind some tall pines. They had no LOS to any enemy units and were basically well behind the front lines. On 2 seperate occasions they gave themselves fast move orders out from behind the trees and towards the enemy lines.

[Wolfe]

The thing about pushing non-moving (and even hiding) units out of "their" foxholes has been around since CMBO. Unfortunately I don't know that it will be fixed before the engine rewrite. Maybe if routed/panicked units do this, they can be allowed to occupy the same space (just like units that have been given move orders but haven't begun moving can) but the non-moving unit will lose FP and/or ROF to account for a panicking unit occupying the same space. Maybe it could even cause them to be spotted more easily (drawing attention). But I really hate seeing them flee back towards my lines and push hiding units out. Almost makes me wish NKVD units were in the game to take care of them before they cause trouble.

I have also seen units with perfectly good LOS, no supression, and no Jammed gun refuse to fire for most of the turn. It's very intermittent, and unfortunately I don't have a saved game.

- Chris

[ November 04, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Sigurd]

Perhaps some BFC admin could post the new 1.01 patch fixes list, so we won't bother them any more with bugs already / soon fixed.

[Tankist]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

I have seen all of these as well.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tankist:

3. Covered Arcs and Hiding

A unit with a covered arc unhides, if an enemy unit (anywhere on the map) enters the covered arc, even if it has NO LOS to the enemy unit!

I had an at-gun hiding in woods with an covered arc/armor.

Enemy infantry was passing my by, some 50 m away.

Then, behind a ridge and out of view(!) of the at-gun, a tank entered the covered arc, obviously spotted by some of my other units.

The gun immediately unhides (for no apparent reason; no LOS means no shoot) and was seen by the infantry; one dead gun...

This bug is reproducible.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, or just a quirk of the engine, because the ambush command in CMBO worked the same way.</font>

[Bruceov]

art that is firing but doesn't appear to land on the map

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Tankist:

In CMBO only units with LOS to the ambush marker can target it iirc.

So if an enemy unit comes close to the marker, the hiding unit unhides and has LOS to shoot.

Quite different in CMBB, as pointed out above.

Tankist

Not exactly. It is true that units had to have LOS to the marker to target it initially, but after targeting it they could later move out of LOS and still retain their targeting of the marker.

[Tankist]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tankist:

In CMBO only units with LOS to the ambush marker can target it iirc.

So if an enemy unit comes close to the marker, the hiding unit unhides and has LOS to shoot.

Quite different in CMBB, as pointed out above.

Tankist

Not exactly. It is true that units had to have LOS to the marker to target it initially, but after targeting it they could later move out of LOS and still retain their targeting of the marker.</font>

[Frunze]

It's possible to detect barbed wire before any unit has spotted it, and before it is visible graphically. While moving the cursor to plot movement, or the LOS tool, if you slide across barbed wire, the terrain readout will read "barbed wire."

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Frunze:

It's possible to detect barbed wire before any unit has spotted it, and before it is visible graphically. While moving the cursor to plot movement, or the LOS tool, if you slide across barbed wire, the terrain readout will read "barbed wire."

The list of fixes, posted awhile ago, lists the things that were in at that time. There's more stuff now, I'm sure, but at the time the above was listed as fixed.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by dalem:

But an answer I have gotten on a few occasions when I have raised the "my troops aren't shooting at valid targets" is "use Covered Arc, silly".

An answer from whom? I have also pointed out, more than once I think, that Arcs restrict rather than engender opening fire. The hill that we're up against, I believe, is simply that it seems very natural and easy to believe that Arcs coerce or encourage the unit to pull the trigger more often. What seems reasonable is often proof enough.

To the topic:

#1 headache) Mortars shifting their spotter to the nearest HQ. This one drives me out of my mind with just about every single game. But I'm the only one?? Ok, you guys.

#2) Ironic Area Fire - The unit in foxhole "disappears", so you Area Fire the foxhole, yet the unit reappears, and your unit *continues* to Area Fire, (to little effect), rather than target the now visible enemy unit.

#3) Disappearing Pillboxes - Honestly.

#4) Disappearing ATGuns - OK, maybe so- but if that place in the shrubbery which previously had an ATGun poking out of it, if that rhododendron is firing AT shells at me, then that rhododendron has got to go, and I'd like to *target* that rhododendron, please. Not Area Fire, a point target on that rhododendron.

#5) AT Rifles at Inf or Area - if this was done in real life, please let us do it here. Only if I *tell* them to, AT Rifles should be able to target infantry or Area Fire at a building.

#6) Whatever those guys were saying about unindentified trucks being semi-identified as halftracks, or was it the other way around, or something...?

Well, I think that's my complete xmas list. Big Time Santaware?

Eden

[Hans]

I'll add one

unlimbered guns/atg/arty cannot move thru wooden fences. Needless to say they should be able to as mortars and MG can

[Tankist]

I made some further tests reg. covered arcs/hiding.

A unit even unhides, if the only 'enemy' unit in its arc is a 'dead soldier' marker!

Even worse, an atg unhides, if the only enemy unit in its arc is a knocked-out tank!

As it is now, covered arcs are not very usable for ambushes, as nearly everything makes a unit unhide (even a dead soldier out-of-los). And staying hidden is the way, to do successful ambushes.

Why was the 'Ambush' order removed in the first place? It works like a charm in CMBO and the covered arcs are not a substitute, but another concept (of restricting fire).

Arcs are great for tanks, but are no replacement for the Ambush order, because ambushes in CMBO were triggered events, while arcs are just a way to limit firing.

I hope we will see the 'Ambush' order in a future patch back again.

Tankist

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by dalem:

To the "reproducible" list I would add "bizarre AFV TacAI" behavior. I lose neough tanks to my own dumb mistakes, I don't need the TacAI moving tanks out of cover for no reason to get killed, or spinning butt-toward enemy.

I have noticed that vehicles (mostly lightly armored ones) try to run away from units that are shooting at them. Even if the attacker is not yet spotted, they seem to know where they have to go to get out of LOS, which seems kind of strange. If a tank starts moving on its own, most likely it is attacked by an unseen enemy. Of course, running away from one enemy can get your tank into LOS of another enemy, which is probably what you experienced.

Dschugaschwili

PS: It seems that a "move out of LOS" behaviour is implemented for vehicles. Why not extend the concept on infantry units whose self-preservation instincts kick in? Sometimes moving out of LOS towards the attacker would be much faster than moving to the nearest cover. Just an idea.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

But an answer I have gotten on a few occasions when I have raised the "my troops aren't shooting at valid targets" is "use Covered Arc, silly".

An answer from whom? </font>

[dalem]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

To the "reproducible" list I would add "bizarre AFV TacAI" behavior. I lose neough tanks to my own dumb mistakes, I don't need the TacAI moving tanks out of cover for no reason to get killed, or spinning butt-toward enemy.

I have noticed that vehicles (mostly lightly armored ones) try to run away from units that are shooting at them. Even if the attacker is not yet spotted, they seem to know where they have to go to get out of LOS, which seems kind of strange. If a tank starts moving on its own, most likely it is attacked by an unseen enemy. Of course, running away from one enemy can get your tank into LOS of another enemy, which is probably what you experienced.

Dschugaschwili

</font>

[Nippy]

#6) Whatever those guys were saying about unindentified trucks being semi-identified as halftracks, or was it the other way around, or something...?

No, the problem was German (Armed) HT's being miss-identified as the Skdf-7 Prime mover. This means that AT rifles and Tanks will not fire at it and the infantry will waste small arms ammo by shooting at it to no effect.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hans:

unlimbered guns/atg/arty cannot move thru wooden fences. Needless to say they should be able to as mortars and MG can

I'm not so sure about that. When mortars are being moved, they are broken down into three relatively light packages that can be handed over a fence or wall. Guns, on the other hand, unless they are pack howtzers or mountain guns do not disassemble for travel and are usually too heavy for their crew to lift. Therefore, to move them through a fence line would require knocking the fence down. I don't know if there is any way to model that within the current game engine.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

#1 headache) Mortars shifting their spotter to the nearest HQ. This one drives me out of my mind with just about every single game. But I'm the only one??

Hardly. This has been brought up periodically ever since CMBO was released, most recently a few weeks ago. The ability to assign HQs to independent units has been a much asked for feature.

#2) Ironic Area Fire - The unit in foxhole "disappears", so you Area Fire the foxhole, yet the unit reappears, and your unit *continues* to Area Fire, (to little effect), rather than target the now visible enemy unit.

This would be nice. The problem is that there are times when you really do want to area fire so there needs to be a means of letting the game know that you would prefer to directly target a unit under the area fire marker if it becomes visible during the turn. There is currently no way to do this. Something to think about for the rewrite, perhaps.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Tankist:

Arcs are great for tanks, but are no replacement for the Ambush order, because ambushes in CMBO were triggered events, while arcs are just a way to limit firing.

I hope we will see the 'Ambush' order in a future patch back again.

This echos a similar comment I made last week. Covered arcs are great, but there are some things the old ambush command was better at. I wish we had both. Unfortunately I have a feeling this won't happen until the next game.

[ November 05, 2002, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eden Smallwood: #2) Ironic Area Fire - The unit in foxhole "disappears", so you Area Fire the foxhole, yet the unit reappears, and your unit *continues* to Area Fire, (to little effect), rather than target the now visible enemy unit.

This would be nice. The problem is that there are times when you really do want to area fire so there needs to be a means of letting the game know that you would prefer to directly target a unit under the area fire marker if it becomes visible during the turn. There is currently no way to do this. Something to think about for the rewrite, perhaps.</font>