Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 I wonder why they are in CM:BO!? Don't get me wrong, they are an excellent troop, I'm a great fan of them. And I don't have a problem with it, I'm just interested. Truth is, they were very very rare on the (CM:BO) Western Front - I know only one battle with them in the French/Italian Alps. But this was a real alpine frontline, which isn't modeled in CM anyway. I wonder if this is not a simple misspelling, and they are 'Jäger' troops. For the uninitiated, the 'Jäger' is an infantry formation, specialist in housefighting and similar difficult terraine. This would also explaine the large number of MPs, the typical close combat weapon. (BTW, I was in 'Jäger Battalion 66' during my military service ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 There were 14 GB divisions all told, 9 in the Heer and 5 in the SS. 2 of the Heer divisions were formed from Austrian units, the rest were Germans. One of the SS divisions was German, the rest were from the Balkans, some German speakers from outside Germany (Volksdeutch) and some minor axis (Croat, Albanian, etc). They served on many fronts, but especially in the Balkans, in Norway and Finland, and in Italy. Some served in Russia because it was the biggest fight around. And they also fought in western and southern Germany, and in Austria, toward the end. Here are the campaigns the different formations serve in - 1 GB - Poland, France, Yugoslavia, AG South, Caucasus, Yugoslavia, Hungary, South Germany. 2 GB (Austrian) - Poland, Norway, Finland, Denmark, South Germany. 3 GB (Austrian) - Poland, Norway, Finland, AG Center, AG South, Hungary, Slovakia, Silesia 4 GB - Yugoslavia, AG South, Caucasus, Crimea, Hungary, Slovakia 5 GB - Greece, Crete, AG North, Italy 6 GB - Greece, Crete, Finland 7 GB - Finland 157 GB (becomes 8 GB later) - Alps, North Italy 188 GB - Yugoslavia 6 SS GB - Finland, west Germany 7 SS GB (Yugoslav Volksdeutch) - Yugoslavia 13 SS GB (Croat) - Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria 21 SS GB (Albanian) - Yugoslavia 24 SS GB (Balkan Volksdeutch) - Italy (mostly anti-partisan, some vs. Brits at the end) 1 GB, 2 GB, and 6 SS GB all fought in southern Germany in 1945. 5 GB, 157 (=8) GB, and 24 SS GB all fought in Italy. 6 GB also fought the British in Greece and Crete, outside the nominal scope of CMBO but against the western Allies. That is half of the GB divisions. By comparison, 5 of them fought against Yugoslav partisans, 5 fought in Finland, and 4 fought in Russia on the main front. The total sums to more than 14 because several of them fought in several places in succession. More about them can be found at the Feldgrau website, and at this URL - http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Gebirgsjager/gebirghp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 6, 2002 Author Share Posted February 6, 2002 Thanks Jason, this mostly matches with my current source ('Die deutsche Gebirgstruppe 1939-45, Roland Kaltenegger, Universitas 1989, Germany). The most battles in 45 were fought vs Russian forces in Austria. So the orignal question is still to answer. BTW, did 'Jäger' forces fought on the CM:BO front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Here's another source, fwiw: James Lucas. Alpine Elite: German Mountain Troops of World War II. Jane's, 1980. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 BTW, did 'Jäger' forces fought on the CM:BO front?Yes, 2nd GB and 6th SS GB both fought on the Western Front, primarily in southwestern Germany. 6th SS GB "Nord" fought in Operation Nordwind. This info is posted on the Feldgrau website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Correction JC: The 6th fought in Norway and Russia in 1944. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Jäger - Light Infantry troops - were they equipped any differently than regular infantry? In the Commonwealth, many regiments were designated Light Infantry (Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Saskatoon Light Infantry, Durham Light Infantry, etc.) but the distinction was academic only - they were all equipped as standard infantry (the SLI was actually machine gun battalion - far from "light" infantry!) On the parade ground, the difference was notable, but in the field it counted for absolutely nothing. I do know German Jäger troops had their own waffenfarbe, cap badge and sleeve badge - similar, but not identical to the Gebirgsjäger badge shown in CM. But I was led to believe they were not equipped anything like a GJ unit - and I am wondering the distinction between a Jäger Regiment and, say, an Infanterie (later Grenadier) Regiment, was anything but academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patgod Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 the difference may have been akin to US army:US army ranger but then thats just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Originally posted by Schrullenhaft: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTW, did 'Jäger' forces fought on the CM:BO front?Yes, 2nd GB and 6th SS GB both fought on the Western Front, primarily in southwestern Germany. 6th SS GB "Nord" fought in Operation Nordwind. This info is posted on the Feldgrau website.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 There were two independent Gebirgsjaeger battalions in the Vosges in September 1944 (read 'Lost battalions'). I am not aware of Jaeger divisions being present on the Western Front, but don't know enough about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 6, 2002 Author Share Posted February 6, 2002 Well, I guess it doesn't make a serious difference, I'm just curious. As I said, the Jäger is a spezialist for city, wood and other covered terraine. I wonder if it was only a question of training, or also of equipment. I have no information about the equipment of Jäger troops, so I can't yet compare it with the regular infantry or GJ, but I have ordered some OOB data sheets about Jäger and GJ from the Nafziger Collection. Steve has based his platoon OOB (at least partially) on them. The most important thing about GJ is just their mountain training/equipment, but both is outside the CM scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 From the CM perspective there is little to distinguish a Jaeger infantry unit from a regular infantry unit other than the weapons and TO&E. Operationally, however, the Jaeger divisions were true light infantry in the sense they had a short logistics trail compared to regular army units. This is important when operating in difficult terrain such as mountains. You will notice that currently the U.S. always deploys 10th Mountain very quickly during any conflict exactly for the same reason - a short logistics trail. For example 10th Mountain was deployed in Somalia where there are no mountains at all. Likewise 10th Mountain was deployed in Yugoslovia, not necessarily to conduct mountain warfare, but because the U.S. need to rapidly deploy infantry on the ground in peace keeping roles. Likewise for guarding the airfields and acting as a rapid reaction force in Afghanastan. [ February 06, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Keith ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 9, 2002 Author Share Posted February 9, 2002 Okay, I have received my data sheeds. The Jäger Platoon Platoon HQ: 1 Platoon Leader (1 SMG) 2 Messengers (2 SMG) 1 Strecher Bearer (1 pistol) 1 Horse Leader (1 rifle) 3 Jäger Groups, each 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 9 x Soldiers (2 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG) Note the 5th HQ soldier, while we have only 4 in CM. Let's assume the 'lost' soldier is an absent messenger. The sheet for the Mountain Jäger Platoon shows the excact same TO&E. So the difference is indeed only the mountain training & equipment (both out of the CM scope) Maybe also of interest: The Light Jäger Group 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 10 x Soldiers (3 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG) The Pioneer Group (Jäger Regiment) 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 9 x Soldiers (2 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon: Okay, I have received my data sheeds. The Jäger Platoon Platoon HQ: 1 Platoon Leader (1 SMG) 2 Messengers (2 SMG) 1 Strecher Bearer (1 pistol) 1 Horse Leader (1 rifle) 3 Jäger Groups, each 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 9 x Soldiers (2 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG) Note the 5th HQ soldier, while we have only 4 in CM. Let's assume the 'lost' soldier is an absent messenger. The sheet for the Mountain Jäger Platoon shows the excact same TO&E. So the difference is indeed only the mountain training & equipment (both out of the CM scope) Maybe also of interest: The Light Jäger Group 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 10 x Soldiers (3 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG) The Pioneer Group (Jäger Regiment) 1 x NCO (1 SMG) 9 x Soldiers (2 rifles, 6 SMG, 1 LMG)How do you carry a stretcher with only one man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Young Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 The strecher is easy to carry, but a body on the strecher, that takes two! E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 9, 2002 Author Share Posted February 9, 2002 I don't know about the strecher, the source says there was only one bearer. Maybe the medic? Maybe someone else who was around? [ February 09, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Puff the Magic Dragon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 I would suggest maybe "stretcher bearer" is a misnomer, and this actually represents a trained medical specialist? With actual stretcher bearers grouped at the company, battalion or even regimental level, underneath the regiment's medical services? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 9, 2002 Author Share Posted February 9, 2002 Michael, I really don't know, it is at least not a translation error of me, cause the TO&E is in English, I have purchased it from from the Nafziger Collection in the USA. [ February 09, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Puff the Magic Dragon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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