John Kettler Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 I'm currently up to about Turn 13 in my very first PBEM. I have the Germans and have never played either side before, nor had I read the spoilers before the game. My opponent has played both sides before, even winning a rare victory once as the Germans against a live opponent. My game is being played straight up--no force adjustments on either end. And therein lies the rub. My defensive layout was sound, even according to my opponent, yet I'm being systematically ripped apart and am essentially powerless to do much of anything to him. It's the "too" problem. Too much armor.Too much infantry. Too much fire support, too much visibility into my defenses and way,way too much smoke. (See my Forum post on real world defense vs defense in CM). The direct fire is deadly accurate, even from a moving tank, itself under fire, some 200+ m away, the artillery is swift to arrive, frighteningly accurate and devastating, even against my strongest positions and dug-in, hidden troops. And did I mention that through most of the battle I've hardly seen anything? Every time I finally begin to be able to engage, more smoke blooms in my hard won LOS. A unit enfilading him from Plomville just got that very treatment. No more shooting for you! I did get a couple of good licks in with the sIG 33 in the earliest turns, before it was first suppressed, then destroyed in a deluge of what looked like mortar fire and 105s. The PAK bunker was blocked by smoke on the big American hill, behind which a pair of Shermans set up shop and rained death on my right flank positions. The smoke cleared just long enough for the PAK to K-kill one of my tormentors, at which point the hill was repeatedly plowed by 105 fires until its defenses were shattered. The entire valley floor then disappeared in smoke, as did the resmoked big American hill, behind which soon materialized a veritable sea of guys in khaki. My squads are facing fire, often plunging, from upwards of four squads each, are being shattered by direct tank fires, all while most of the bunkers and MG teams have either been suppressed, broken or destroyed outright. Now, I enjoy a tough fight, but this is more akin to being lashed to the target during a live fire exercise. You can definitely be hit, but you can't hit back. I seem to remember reading somewhere that VoT was specifically designed to showcase certain features of CM, but it seems to me that little if any thought was devoted to play balance in this scenario. The Allies seem to have crushing superiority in every applicable military category, against a static foe forced to defend several highly exposed objectives while possessing few long range weapons and only miniscule fire support. At my rival's suggestion, I looked up aka_tom_w's thread on this issue, so am aware that I will eventually get some reinforcements. At the present, accelerating rate of collapse among my infantry and given the near annihilation of my pillboxes and bunkers, I seriously doubt I'll be around for their arrival. Would someone more knowledgeable than I on this scenario, preferably the designer, please explain how this scenario could ever be considered balanced or even roughly balanced as written, with both sides played unmodified? I don't see how it's possible myself. I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who's wargamed since age 12, played lots of WW II battles with miniatures and spent over eleven years with Hughes and Rockwell as a professional military analyst. In martial perplexity, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 I think it's mostly the too much artillery thing. I've played against a live person as both sides, as well as against the AI as both sides. Against a person, in my two PBEM games, the Germans were finsihed at turn 20+-2. Against the AI I can win handily as either side. The AI handles tanks well, but underutilizes the arty, and it makes all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 John, please take no offense but I think much of the "point" to VoT is doing the best you can with the admittedly meager forces at your disposal. If we required all battles to be near-perfectly balanced it would make designing scenarios much harder. Also, Steve has said that VoT is sort of over-the-top in terms of artillery; we had not yet had a scenario with some big guns, so he whipped one up that would give one side (too bad it's not German) some big BOOMIES. SPOILER ALERT: + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Hang in there; if you can hurt the US badly enough you stand a good chance of scoring a draw. I played VoT as Germans, and at the end of the battle (cease-fire on Turn 20) all I had left was a Panther with no gun and a single platoon, against one Sherman still functional and I think two relatively fresh platoons. The US commanded all objectives; I wasn't even able to keep any neutral. But I tore up the US so badly I managed a draw; my 53 to his 43. With the force imbalance, even a draw is a good show for the Germans. So it's not totally hopeless. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 John, Steve made that scenario himself if I recall, so Ill let him make his own point as far as design is concerned but I just wanted to say a couple of things. I won that scenario the first time I played it against a human opponent with a +125% advantage. My opponent played well, but my tactics werent what he expected. One thing about CM is that becuase you have a front line drawn across the map at setup time most people tend to place the forces close too it. What I did was to dig in much further back, more out of sight of his armour and away from his expected artey bombardment areas. This allowed me to use the bunkers to buy time for my reinforcemetns to arrive. It worked well, though I did get lucky with the 75mm pillbox taking out 3 tanks before loosing it. I personally feel that the scenario does favour the allies a little, but then again in reality that wasnt uncommon. I think when playing as the defender you really need to get down at ground level and put yourself in the shoes of the attacker. Work out his attack route, his LOS and how to keep you guys alive the longest Keep in mind too that I have been playing CM for a long time now, and if that was my first PBEM Im sure I would have gotten my butt kicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epée Posted July 3, 2000 Share Posted July 3, 2000 I have played VoT (and CE) many, many times, be it single player, hotseat or PBEM. I would say that against a human opponent, VoT should have at least +25% to the Germans (and so should CE, for that matter). In VoT the Germans depend too much on the 75mm. If it is knocked out early (and it frequently is), the Shermans rule the day and there is not much to be done. I would like to see a new version of VoT which is more balanced, because it is a very good scenario. Maybe less arty, less Shermans, or an extra panther for the Germans will do the trick. Epée Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 21, 2000 Author Share Posted July 21, 2000 Afterword I played the game through until the computer forced my surrender in turn 25. By then I had no functional infantry (best surviving squad remnant Shaken), even crews, and the Panther had long been a meagerly armed (bow MG only) mobile pillbox, having gotten one Sherman kill the turn after arrival, only to lose main gun and coax in the first volleys of artillery fire directed against it immediately afterwards. Needless to say--Allied Total Victory. One man escaped to tell the heroic, futile tale of Hill 209. Twenty-eight (in various stages of disrepair) became prisoners, and some fifty-eight were Gefallen im Krieg. Even allowing for bad luck (remarkably short-lived pillboxes and bunkers, the dug-in mortar crew routed by artillery almost before the game began, the dug-in company HQ dying about the same time as the hill disappeared in a storm of 105mm fire and the lamented degunned Panther), I firmly believe that this scenario heavily favors the U.S., especially given the enfilading dominating terrain and the potency of smoke in that terrain. The U.S. has so much of so many resources that it simply chews up the German defense piecemeal, what with six tanks (at least one a howitzer tank), four FOs and hordes of infantry. I think it would be interesting to tone the U.S. down a bit and/or swap out the existing German mortars for the far bigger bite of an offboard 81mm and/or 120mm mortar battery, with several more TRPs. After all, this is a set-piece defense. Every significant piece of terrain should long since have been indexed and registered, so this is eminently reasonable considering the scenario. I think U.S. smoke supplies need to be considerably reduced. Given the way that CM implements smoke, it's way too powerful at its present scale of issue. Another item which baffles me, in VoT and in the game in general, is the meager Panzerfaust allocation. We've all seen lots of pictures in which half or more of a German squad's members have Panzerfausts, yet in a set-piece defense my squads (HQs have none) have one Panzerfaust each, and some of those the almost pathetic 30m version. What gives? Why is such a common weapon so scarce? Would love to get more feedback from the rest of you on what I've said here. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 I haven`t played this scenario , but under the circumstances, I would try a fighting retreat:hit the advancing enemy, then retreat to another defence line (before he gets within 80 m) and let him hit air .Then ambush him again and repeat. . If he`s using smoke to cover his advance, then good, it allows you to retreat easier. But make sure you`re not retreating just when the artillery is coming down . As a military expert, you understand that this requires good timing and maybe a bit of luck , but the Germans were very good at it. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 You're right, most people would probably tend to agree that VoT is unbalanced towards the US side - take away the arty though and it's a totally different ballgame (and since you know which hill the arty spotter will probably be on <hint, hint> at the beginning of the game, there's something you can try to do about him). VoT however is a special scenario that I'm sure a lot of us will remember for a long time because it was the first thing we played on the long awaited gold-demo and I have a feeling that it was included mainly because of its classic status (it showcased some really cool terrain, bunkers, minefields and most of all the arty barrages). Last Defense is another one of the classics that absolutely had to be included, balanced or not. I've read a suggestion that +25% for the Germans evens things out a bit. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 SPOILERS I played just that scenario for about a week and discovered good tactics for it. Put one platoon of infantry BEHIND the Victory Flag that is to the way right. Put them on the backside of that hill and many times they wont be seen until the end. Put your concrete MG between the two left-most light buildings in town. (The ones closest to the big hill) That MG gets a lot of kills sometimes. Put AP mines in cover, so enemy infantry have to stay in the open. I have found a good position for the wood MG bunker is right to the left of your left-most building, on the map. Put it almost inside the building. Put a MG42 in there. I usually put 2 infantry platoons inside the town, and make that my main defense. Some of the buildings can take Arty fire pretty well. Use smoke yourself, launch it with a mortar. If your company HQ can see an area, he acts as a spotter for your mortars. Use their smoke wisely yourself. If you see an enemy arty observer, smoke him. Smoke their tanks. Most of all, make your infantry all HIDE. Until you want them to shoot. Once you get your Panther, put him in a hull down position and start unloading on Shermans. Your Infantry Gun I have found a good spot is in the woods on the far left. Not much can see it and it doesnt have a good LOS, but if any US infantry decide to flank from that direction you can blast em. Put a Wooden Bunker on the bottom of a hill on your right flank to stop infantyr. It wil be almost invisible until they stumble into the open in front of it. I have never really found a good position for the 75mm Pak, so I just leave it on the hill and hope for the best. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teufel Hunden Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 "I would like to see a new version of VoT which is more balanced, because it is a very good scenario. Maybe less arty, less Shermans, or an extra panther for the Germans will do the trick." Epée you can go into "create scenario" open up any scenario and edit it . Just be sure to change the name before you save it. ------------------ Jason "Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." (Colonel David M. Shoup, USMC, Tarawa, 21 November 1943.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th ghost Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 well like we say in the south fire and fall back hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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