stopping the infantry "rush"

[xerxes]

What's the best tactics/strat for countering a full on maximum infantry frontal assault when you're defending?

and yes I'm facing just this in one of my first pbems.

- xerx

[Chad Harrison]

an old trick i learned playing Advanced squad leader is sulking. in CM it has worked good for me in the past to either:

spliting squads and putting one up front in foxholes, and one behind under cover (deep in woodds, and such), move the unseen half squad forward the first minute of combat and have the now full squad hide. when things get heavy, withdrawl back to the unseen foxhole. just make sure the HQ doesnt get capped, you dont loose to many men, and dont waste precious ammo!! this has worked pretty well for out of city combat. remember, an ambush is not intended to last for more than 30-60 seconds.

in city combat i like to hide my troops on the edge of buildings. at the beginning of a turn give them a nice close (less than 60m) and juicy infantry target, delay them for 15-30 seconds and order them to run to the center of a large building. the american full squads (12men) or german machinegun squads are very effective in that role.

another important setting up technique is to place you troops in a position that doesnt allow everyone in the world to shoot at them.

infantry/guns in positions that have great LOS have to remember that tracers work both ways. yes they can see a lot, but a lot can see them. place some in positions that do not allow the world to see them, yet they are effective in defending. a fine art i have not mastered quite yet.

and to top it all off, never forget to save a few men in the back for the final round counterattack. ammo runs low fast with ground pounders, and even a fresh, 40 rounds weilding, platoon at the end could turn the game. Oh, and just wear your lucky underwear and hope that lady luck is on your side today.

[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: Chad Harrison ]

[Sergeant Saunders]

It really depends on what you got! If I could have anything: minefields, 14" & 155mm FOs & SP-Arty.

[xerxes]

It's SS mechanized attacking brit paras.

brit paras, 3" mortars, minefields. (that's what he's seen so far.) He's pushed a company of panzergrenadiers onto a wooded VL on the right taking some casualties to mortar fire, he has an overwatch supporting company on a treeline overlooking the village in the middle and he has another company coming up to assault the wooded large hill VLs on the left.

He has at least one 105mm spotter hidden way back. I don't believe he has any armor/ac/ht.

Don't want to tell jeb any more.

- xerx

[Chad Harrison]

is the village a VL location? i assume that it is because if he now takes the hill on the left he has perfect flanking positions to take the city (final VL location?)

the woods he just took on the right is perfect for tree bursts from whatever mortar support you have. i would let him have the right woods and hold the left hill and village. the village will especially give good protection from the 105mm artillery. if the OPFOR's middle company is harassing you, place you city troops deeped out of LOS (if possible), same with woods. the best way to take on such a large assult is one squad/platoon at a time. if you show yourself to too many, its over and youll be overwhelmed! keep him guesing and hope those brits are for once good at close combat!!

[General Petrovsky]

Oh you're playing Jeb huh? You're toast! LOL, I played Jeb and defended (tried to) as well. He's a very good player, he uses his arty perfectly. Keep your forces mobile because he will shell your positions just before he rushes them with infantry while they are panicked and you have no chance. Your Brit airborne squads are excellent at close range combat because they have MGs very similar to German SMG squads. Set up quick short range ambushes where ever terrain allows and then pull out to escape incoming arty. Don't be too sure he was no tanks, he probably just hasn't shown them to you yet, most good players don't. Good luck you'll need it, this guy crushed me. He's very patient and will use every turn to the last in his attack.

[xerxes]

Heh, I chose Jeb because I figured I'd learn a lot from him. He's aggressive, fast and decisive. It's been a lesson for me in how to effectively mount a massive infantry attack.

- xerx

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

What's the best tactics/strat for countering a full on maximum infantry frontal assault when you're defending?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could write a book on this, but I'd keep a few basic principles in mind:

Ambush, pullback, ambush again, pull back, repeat as necessary.

Try to position your men so that when you spring your ambush, his men are in less effective cover than yours.

Hit his guys with light mortar fire as they advance to disrupt his planning and unit effectiveness. When he masses for a rush, hit him with bigger stuff.

Stay mobile. Don't stay put long enough to get overrun or plastered by arty.

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Warmaker]

On-map/FO mortars are quite good for blunting an infantry rush. Short arrival times are one reason. A veteran German 81mm Mortar FO can bring hurt down in 1 minute with 150 rounds. Allied versions I imagine can do very nicely (250 rounds isn't it?). The mortar blasts don't have to kill that much, it's supposed to suppress them or force "greenie" troops to run home for their mothers' breasts.

105mm artillery is quite good if you can pin the attackers just long enough to shatter them with the ever reliable 105mm.

With artillery, the main thing is to slow/halt the advance with the light stuff (75mm or 81mm mortars). If possible, completely break an attack with heavier artillery once the attackers are pinned. Also, well placed HMG teams can have a field day with the enemy especially if they're clumping together like the cowards they are. I tend to save my actual squads until they get close to my support teams so I can massacre them... the equivalent of snuffing out the "light at the end of the tunnel."

Vanir Ausf B has valid points. I want to stress to pullback when the enemy brings his strength to bear on a certain group of your defenders. You can't afford to let them do this since most likely you'll be outgunned, outnumbered, and soon to be out of luck. Don't let your pride kill your men... give up ground if you must to preserve your men for later, more opportune counterattacks.

Here's another nice toy if the only worry is a direct frontal assault... barbwire and TRPs... enough said!

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[xerxes]

I've been given a lesson by jeb in why you want a flexible line of defence and how you need to pull back from a major infantry attack. He's managed to mangle a couple of platoons and they are going to be sorely missed when he launches his major assault. My 3" mortars have caused some significant damage but probably not enough. I also didn't get his troops pinned well before mortaring them so I've wasted some rounds.

Lessons learned the hard way are always remembered the best.

- xerxes

[JasonC]

In my experience, the best defense against a concentrated infantry rush is an unsuppressable, area-effect counter. Artillery FOs can do it, and AP mines also work provided they are in a continuous belt (6-10 individual tiles long). The key things helping both are (1) they do more damage when more men run through the same area, not less, and (2) the attacking infantry can't suppress them no matter how close they get. Ordinary shooters can be overwhelmed by numbers because they don't have the first ability, and anything not armored can also be suppressed because they don't have the second.

The next best thing is about 100 yards of open ground all within view of 3-5 heavy MGs, field guns, or tanks, preferably firing in from different angles too. These work best if at least some are far from the scene of the attack, firing in from longer ranges - so they don't get taken out by the rush itself. Range won't reduce the effectiveness of your HE much (e.g. from field guns), while it will provide protection to infantry replies. A poor third is about the same amount of open space ahead of a full infantry platoon (or more), all unsuppressed, with ammo, and in command radius of their HQ.

The plain infantry can work particularly well if they are in buildings and the street outside is pavement. But against attacker's odds (3:2 to 2:1), the first and second work considerably better in most situations. Of course, two or more of the above will work better than one of them.

Anything below those things, in my experience, will not do the job. On map mortars don't have enough HE firepower and scatter their shots too widely; single squads or teams are easily suppressed; infantry or MG fire into cover (or only ~50 meters of open, because it lets the attackers shoot at you from cover on their way in) will not do it either, because they will not do enough damage before being suppressed, or engaged in close combat.

[Holien]

Hi,

Just to add weight to the discussion I have just had my 1st Infantry massed rush used against me.

It was not pleasant and I have learnt a lot, while losing the final of Group B T house tourney.

The chap I was up against took 3 companies plus 1 platoon of Brits (Reg / Vet Inf) and 5 4.2'' mortar OPS.

He used the approach of some long range Arty spotters with poor LOS and some up close with the Inf rushing. He would pound with the arty suspect woods, then rush a platoon quickly followed up with the rest of the company and the close support arty OP's.

I had wire and mines but used them piecemeal and created firebases with my 7 platoons. I tried to set up with reverse slopes and using the trees to maximum effect. This had limited effect against the above approach.

I was basically swamped and the 4 x 75mm arty spotters I had bought failed to blunt the attack. (I was not allowed 120mm Mort's but could have taken 81mm Mort's and 105's.)

Well there were a couple of points during the game I could have swung it in my favour and I relate these to explain how I think the above can be best used.

The first wave hit a 2 squad platoon and HQ outpost, which was designed to inflict some casualties and then bug out. This they did but were overwhelmed by a company plus hitting them in a smallish area of woods.

I had TRP's but had placed them in advance of this outpost. I should have placed the TRP on top of the outpost and then used 81mm to pin and 105 to destroy, using the TRP to allow quick call in of firepower.

This I could have repeated at a later stage against another concentration of Inf and this time I had the TRP ready. However just previous to this the game had crashed (ISP cut out) and it had saved my opponents turn (he had hit go) and not mine. Because he had hit go it would not let me issue the orders I had planned and I was going to retarget a salvo. Instead my rounds landed in open space and I wasted a full salvo for no effect. :mad:

A rather unfortunate round, which helped destroy what little chance, I had.

To summarise what has been said previously you need arty and you need TRP's and you need a degree of luck in getting the placement of both right so that you can break the rush.

I think my decision to buy 4 x 75mm Aty was a poor choice as the delay is quite steep on the call down and even with plus 2 command HQ's it did not speed up the delivery to an acceptable standard. I would have been better off with an 81mm Spotter and a couple of 105's. The 81 has enough rounds to pin and comes in quick. The 105 kills big time and with TRP's and a decent HQ should get there in time to find a target.

I have found MMG's to not work and have stopped using them. I will in CM2 as they have been reworked in conjunction with the move commands, which should give MMG's a better effect. IRL MMG's would stop such a charge.

Until that time on defense the only effective way to stop the inf rush is pin and then destroy with heavy arty.

H

[Gen-x87H]

Alot of concentrated Fire. TRPs are great if you luck out and place them in a correct spot. 105s kill alot of infantry.

Gen

[xerxes]

I've found that offboard artillery is of limited usefulness against an inf rush. The reason is the delay in arrival and your target is on the move much of the time. It becomes something of a guessing game.

I think onboard mortars in direct fire to interdict the enemy advance and then pulling back for indirect fire when the enemy closes within 250 meters is useful because of the very quick response time.

Mines cause some casualties but don't seem to disrupt the attack enough for their cost unless you can be sure that multiple platoons will hit the mines at the same time.

I'm thinking that good inf support armor (stug's/sherms) is the ticket.

- xerxes

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

I'm thinking that good inf support armor (stug's/sherms) is the ticket.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i cant tell you how much i love those cheap sherman 75's! with 3mgs and almost 100 rounds, you cant beat them for infantry support!

[Sergeant Saunders]

A current game I am playing, I have a mix of Stuarts, sherm75 & sherm105s. Now I'm attacking, but I am amazed at how well this combo removes infantry. target foxholes or suspected areas with stuarts 37, tends to push infantry into open, suppress with MG and 75HE, then eliminate with 105HE.