Panther "G" TurretFront!?

[K_Tiger]

Why only 100mm of frontal Turret Armor?? I was believing, they hade 110mm.....

[K_Tiger]

please any official answers!!!

[Clinton]

You are correct sir. According to "The Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Chamberlain and Doyle, the Pazerkampfwagen Ausf G has 110mm at 11 degrees.

[TSword]

The Panther G has a rounded 100 mm Cast armor mantlet which has somewhat lowered penetration resistance vs. rounds near it's thikness and above. (Compendiums are a bad source of exact armor thiknesses, take a Jentz book about it or THE Panther book Spielberger's.

The point with the Panther G mantlet was it's roundness, so only a comparatively small area gives a low angle shot -> inreasing probability of a deflection. It's equal to JS-2 mantlet.

However a T-34/85 will only be able to achieve a weak penetration at ranges > 800 m which may injure someone in the turret and jam the gun (The gun and holder gives some additional protection), so quite a good protection. Stay outside 1000 m to T-34/85 and use concentrated fire from different directions (split platoon into sections). A Panther in confined space won't be happy just like all big cats, so don't waste money on small maps and buy NUMBERS of veteran or better Stug's instead, intermixed with P4 when on attack course. In CMBB the blind rush days will forever be gone....

Greets

Daniel

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Clinton:

You are correct sir. According to "The Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Chamberlain and Doyle, the Pazerkampfwagen Ausf G has 110mm at 11 degrees.

Or you are just reading the same book.

Von Senger und Etterlin has it at 100 for the G 110 for the A and 80 for the D version.

[K_Tiger]

Doesnt matter which version hade the 110mm, but would be nice to see one in CM:BB. The surviving rate against T_43/85 is then mutch higher.

Btw... i noticed more Turret hits then in CM:BO.

I played "xxxxxxxx xxxx" the map with the *oups*. Put all in a hull down possiton, but all were sniperd, by *peep* and *peep`s* from over 1500 meters, mostly 1700 meters and more.

On a other scenario, cant remember the name of it, i defended with 11 Panthers, all in hull down and i saw not one "upper hull riccochet", all were killed by turret hits from T43-85.

Now we have the "search for hull down position" order, but i have really bad impressions and dont think to use it in my next games.

I made also tests on plain terrain and got mostly upper hull hits.

I can understand if this happends with T-34, theyr turrets r in front of the vehicel and stings in your eye at first and maybe you cant miss it..

[ September 24, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: K_Tiger ]

[Andreas]

K_Tiger - use spoiler warnings, other people want to be surprised by what is in a scenario.

[K_Tiger]

Come on...you see in the briefings which assetts you get, and to counter T-34 and KV`s...couldn be a surprise..

[Andrew H.]

Squadron/Signal's Panther in Action gives the "D" a turret front of 80mm and the "G" a turret front of 100 as well. It doesn't have armor stats for the "A," oddly enough.

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

Come on...you see in the briefings which assetts you get, and to counter T-34 and KV`s...couldn be a surprise..

Of course not with the way you're spoiling things...

[Redwolf]

Folks,

every source giving a single thickness and angle for the Panther turret front is proven to be crap. Just have a look at the thing to know what I mean.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

Come on...you see in the briefings which assetts you get, and to counter T-34 and KV`s...couldn be a surprise..

And what if you want to play it double-blind PBEM as the Soviets? It is simply bad form to throw scenario-specific information all over the forum as you do, and reduces other people's enjoyment of the game.

[K_Tiger]

Calm down...i dont like it also to know anything about a new scenario, but if you play a standard scenario against an PBEM opponent, you cant change your setup and buy a gamey force for your advantage.

Still we remain Friends???

[Redwolf]

So why don't you edit the offending postings?

[K_Tiger]

Red: you blind sheep.... :eek:

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

Red: you blind sheep.... :eek:

Sorry, I didnt actally read your posts in detail because I didn't want to be spoiled myself

I'll look up Rexford's book's opinion on the Panther turret front when I go home to make good for it

[K_Tiger]

What, you own the magical one and only Book from Rexford?? Where can i get it, if at all?, did you have the ISBN number??

[Tacitus]

According to "Panther Tank" by Thomas L. Jentz (which has to the most detailed and informative reference book on any AFV I have seen.)the armour thicknesses are as follows:-

AUSF D Mantlet 100mm. Thickness tapering to top and to bottom as seen side on. The turret front armour is 100mm @12degrees.

AUSF A Same thicknesses as Ausf D but the mantlet was redesigned,and only obvious changes were seen the side. The Ausf A had the same chassis as the Ausf D. but had a totally reworked turret. All changes available on request.

AUSF G Inherited the Ausf A turret , but had a new chassis. The `chin mantlet` was introduced in Sept 1944. Howerver both Ausf A and Ausf G were in production until the end of the war but the Ausf A was present in ever decreasing numbers. The Ausf D ceased production in Sept 43 when 842 had been produced. The production changeover from the Ausf D to Ausf A was swift.

[JonS]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

...

Btw... i noticed more Turret hits then in CM:BO.

I played "xxxxxxxx xxxx" the map with the *oups*. Put all in a hull down possiton, but all were sniperd, by *peep* and *peep`s* from over 1500 meters, mostly 1700 meters and more.

On a other scenario, cant remember the name of it, i defended with 11 Panthers, all in hull down and i saw not one "upper hull riccochet", all were killed by turret hits from T43-85.

Now we have the "search for hull down position" order, but i have really bad impressions and dont think to use it in my next games.

I made also tests on plain terrain and got mostly upper hull hits...

Well, duh! Of course you get turret hits when your tanks are hull down! That's the point. What do you think hull-down means, anyway?

[ September 24, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[K_Tiger]

[Ari Maenpaa]

The DesertFox’s Panther site must be the number one Panther source in the net.

Check out his bibliography.

For all the three models (D, A, G) he gives:

100mm@12 degs on the front turret armor and

100mm/Round on the mantlet.

And those excellent pictures at the site show that the curved mantlet covered almost all of the frontal turret area. Very little of the non-curved armor was exposed to enemy fire.

Ari

[Ex Bellator]

K_Tiger - I'm very interested by what you are saying. Please can you confirm that in CMBB a Hull Down tank will only take hits to it's Turret?

As we all know in CMBO you would often get Upper Hull hits while Hull Down as well, which I was never really comfortable with.

Thanks...

[ September 24, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ]

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

I think there are different ways to go "hull-down".

Example: Your tank is behind a wall and the wall covers the Hull, so only the Turret can be seen, thats one sort.

You climb a hill until your lower hull is "hull-down" and the gun is lowered almost down to the upper hull. In this position, the most surface would be the upper hull.[/QB]

I don't think that this last bit would work with a Panther; its gun will only depress 4 degrees down.

[Ex-WWIIOL Player]

Yep, all three models had 100mm round mantlet armour at its thickest point tapering down towards the edges but as it tapers its angle increases.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Gun depression is not modeled afaik.

Don't worry K-T, the first thing I did last night after getting it in the mail (well, install, of course) was run a bunch of AFV v. AFV tests for grins and to look at all the models. At 500m, 1000m, 1500m, 2000m, and 3000m, the Panther toasted T-34's of any sort with great regularity.