CM:BB exploding T-34 tanks?

[BDW]

I recently read the following, and was wondering if this was going to be modeled in CM:BB?

For a long time after the war I sought an answer to one question. If a T-34 started burning, we tried to get as far away from it as possible, even though this was forbidden. The on-board ammunition exploded. For a brief period of time, perhaps six weeks, I fought on a T-34 around Smolensk. The commander of one of our companies was hit in his tank. The crew jumped out of the tank but were unable to run away from it because the Germans were pinning them down with machine gun fire. They lay there in the wheat field as the tank burned and blew up. By evening, when the battle had waned, we went to them. I found the company commander lying on the ground with a large piece of armor sticking out of his head. When a Sherman burned, the main gun ammunition did not explode. Why was this?

Such a case occurred once in Ukraine. Our tank was hit. We jumped out of it but the Germans were dropping mortar rounds around us. We lay under the tank as it burned. We laid there a long time with nowhere to go. The Germans were covering the empty field around the tank with machine gun and mortar fires. We lay there. The uniform on my back was beginning heating up from the burning tank. We thought we were finished! We would hear a big bang and it would all be over! A brother's grave! We heard many loud thumps coming from the turret. This was the armor-piercing rounds being blown out of their cases. Next the fire would reach the high explosive rounds and all hell would break loose! But nothing happened. Why not? Because our high explosive rounds detonated and the American rounds did not? In the end it was because the American ammunition had more refined explosives. Ours was some kind of component that increased the force of the explosion one and one-half times, at the same time increasing the risk of detonation of the ammunition.

[Schrullenhaft]

Are you asking whether Soviet ammunition will be more likely to cause a catastophic explosion or that ammunition 'cooking off' will be modelled ? I don't think that either will be modelled in particular in CMBB (though a higher liklihood of catastrophic explosions for Soviet AFVs might be in there). I don't think that turrets blowing off will be modelled either if that is your next question.

[Commissar]

Turrets blowing off will definitely not be in CMBB. It would be neat to have, but BTS has already stated that this will not in CMBB. Perhaps in the engine rewrite. Actually, I asked if the Jack-in-the-box effect would be modeled and got a negative reply. Unless BTS has reversed its stance....

The quote is from Dmitriy Loza and his full interview can be found on the website, The Russian Battlefield. In specific, the interview is here:

Loza Interview @ The Russian Battlefield

[ July 28, 2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[BDW]

I was interested in whether the shrapnel effect of the burning tank exploding and harming infantry nearby would be modeled. It would be pretty exciting in the game if, a few turns after your tank got hit, it suddenly exploded, causing casualties to any infantry right next to it.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by BDW:

I was interested in whether the shrapnel effect of the burning tank exploding and harming infantry nearby would be modeled. It would be pretty exciting in the game if, a few turns after your tank got hit, it suddenly exploded, causing casualties to any infantry right next to it.

I think CMBO models that now, does it not :confused: ?

-tom w

[rexford]

One other interesting aspect of that story is that it suggests that Russian HE fragmentation rounds would be much more effective than U.S., German or British.

British HE was inferior to U.S. because of poorer metal quality? Can anyone comment on that. I don't mean mortars, HE rounds fired by tanks and guns.

Thanks.

Lorrin

[Louie the Toad]

What ! No flying turrets ?

Mmm .... Mmm.... Mm..Mm...Mmm --- Oliver Hardy

Toad

[BDW]

aka_tom - I've played a lot of CM and I can't remember ever seeing a tank explode turns after the infantry bailed out. I am not tank expert, but apparntly these Russian T34's were prone to having their ammo explode after they caught fire, thereby harming those near the tnak.

I thought it would add an interesting and exciting element to the game if it were modeled. Not knowing whether that burning tank is going to explode or not before your men can move away from it....!

[Schrullenhaft]

No, tanks won't explode after being killed ('ammo/propellant cooking off'). A catastrophic explosion at the time the AFV is killed will cause casualties for those units that are in very close proximity, but that isn't what you're looking for since the only time an AFV will explode in CMBO/CMBB is when it is hit and not awhile afterwards.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by BDW:

aka_tom - I've played a lot of CM and I can't remember ever seeing a tank explode turns after the infantry bailed out. I am not tank expert, but apparntly these Russian T34's were prone to having their ammo explode after they caught fire, thereby harming those near the tnak.

I thought it would add an interesting and exciting element to the game if it were modeled. Not knowing whether that burning tank is going to explode or not before your men can move away from it....!

OK

I was just refering to the collateral damage to nearby infantry when a tank exploded.

You are correct, it would seem CMBO does not model the delayed explosion of HE and AP ammo cooking off after the crew has bailed, no doubt about that.

-tom w

[sebastian]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

You are correct, it would seem CMBO does not model the delayed explosion of HE and AP ammo cooking off after the crew has bailed, no doubt about that.

That was a cool feature in CC. You had to stay away from burning tanks, because they could explode and kill your infantry. I hope this will be included in CM3 just like flying turrets falling down on somebody...

[ July 28, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: sebastian ]

[rleete]

If I think I can safely do it (i.e. no other enemy armor about), I often try to brew up abandoned tanks, simply to try and cause infantry casualties. It alsp causes smoke, which blocks LOS. A sneaky but sometimes effective tactic.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by sebastian:

I hope this will be included in CM3 just like flying turrets falling down on somebody...

Can you cite me any examples from the actual war of people getting hit by falling turrets?

Michael

[Guest Mike]

Ah ha - well we all know the story - if MD doubts it then it must've happened!!

I think CMBB absolutely MUST be delayed until fallign turrets can cause casualties!! :mad:

[sebastian]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sebastian:

I hope this will be included in CM3 just like flying turrets falling down on somebody...

Can you cite me any examples from the actual war of people getting hit by falling turrets?

</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by sebastian:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sebastian:

I hope this will be included in CM3 just like flying turrets falling down on somebody...

Can you cite me any examples from the actual war of people getting hit by falling turrets?

</font>

[sebastian]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

That means, among other things, that they don't include anything for which no historical documentation can be found.

It is not a documantary-movie. It is a game. There is also no historical documentation about all the QBs I've played, I guess. It still was fun.

It is realistic that turrets fly around somtimes. And if they happen to land on something damageable(houses, people) they schould damage it. I like details like that in games. It is fun to watch. I hope BTS will make the new engine flexible enough to include such stuff.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

[snips]Can you cite me any examples from the actual war of people getting hit by falling turrets?

From Wolfgang Fleischer's "Panzerfaust and other German infantry anti-tank weapons" (Schiffer, Atglen PA, 1994), page 11:

"Again and again there were tragic accidents. In one case they were able to push a T-mine under the rear end of a T-34, and when it exploded it tore the turret from the hull. It was thrown exactly in the direction where the two soldiers had taken cover, and they were buried under it. Such and similar episodes continued toi emphasize the need for more effective close-combat anti-tank weapons."

This exhausts my stock of flying-turret-falling-on-people stories.

All the best,

John.

[Nidan1]

Isn't it interesting, that in the annals of Soviet tank design, they never learned from the T-34 about where to store the ammo. Take a look at Dessert Storm, most if not all of the T-55,T-62 and T-72s were SANS TURRETS after being hit by rounds from the Abrahms. It would be a neat effect though, to see turrets hurtling through the air onto nearby infantry. Oh well, I guess it my be in CM3.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by sebastian:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

That means, among other things, that they don't include anything for which no historical documentation can be found.

It is not a documantary-movie. It is a game. There is also no historical documentation about all the QBs I've played, I guess. It still was fun.

It is realistic that turrets fly around somtimes. And if they happen to land on something damageable(houses, people) they schould damage it. I like details like that in games. It is fun to watch. I hope BTS will make the new engine flexible enough to include such stuff.</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

Looks like the old effort vs. effect discussion (programming time requirements vs. game effect (how often would it REALLY happen)), so I would tend to say it won't be included even in "CM10: From Bahrain to Baghdad"

Yep. That's the point. If Charles has to sit down and program in every feature that some dood thinks is kewl and then debug it, we'll never get to see CMBB.

Michael

[ July 29, 2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

{snip}I would tend to say it won't be included even in "CM10: From Bahrain to Baghdad"

Oh Man! I can't wait for Bahrain to Baghdad to be finished. Boy oh boy. Yep, what're BFC and all waiting for!!?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ozzy:

{snip}I would tend to say it won't be included even in "CM10: From Bahrain to Baghdad"

Oh Man! I can't wait for Bahrain to Baghdad to be finished. Boy oh boy. Yep, what're BFC and all waiting for!!? </font>

[Nidan1]

Next we will be wanting spent brass flying out of machine guns and burning guys in the adjacent foxholes.

[Patgod]

OoOoOoOoOo! you're right, we have to have that too Nidan!!!