S.L.A. Marshall, Men Against Fire

[PiggDogg]

It has been quite a few years since I have read Men Against Fire by S.L.A. Marshall.

In the past few days, upon going through a box of books in my attic, I found my copy of this most wonderful book. I am going to re-read this tome.

If I remember correctly, as a result of numerous first person interviews of many U.S. Army troopers in northwestern Europe, Marshall discovered and verified that in whole engagements/battles only a very small percentage of soldiers (despite imminent danger) even fired their weapons, much less firing their weapons accurately. :eek:

If I remember correctly, in regular line troops, 10% to 15% even fired at all. In more elite units (paras), about 25% of the troops fired. Crew served weapons (mgs, vehicles, tanks, etc.) had a greater tendency to fire than their individual weapon brothers. A very few soldiers do a lot of action. :eek:

If I remember correctly, soldiers really try to preserve thier one and only life.

Here are some random thoughts:

(1) If only about 10% to 20% of troopers even fire at all, the few weapons that fire put out a lot of fire power, killing power, stopping fire. :eek:

(2) In nearly all recent and past war movies (Pvt Ryan, Sands of Iwo Jima, Band Of Brothers, etc., etc.) everyone (well, 95 plus percent) fire like Sargeant York (well, almost like the sgt). Hey, some boring movies if few fire like in The Thin Red Line.

(3) I'll think of many more things as days go by & as I re-read Men Against Fire.

(4) How does this relate (or not relate) to my most favorite of games, CM1, CM2, CM97, etc? :cool:

(5) Think, think, think; wonder, wonder, wonder.

Cheers, Richard

[ February 17, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[Michael Dorosh]

You may want to read some more recent books that criticize S.L.A. Marshall pretty heavily, for a more balanced picture. I believe Hackworth has stuff to say, for example, about Marshall's methodology.

Marshall wrote a follow up after the Korean War, and found that in that conflict, according to him, up to 50 percent of US soldiers used their weapons.

One of his books was the basis for the movie PORK CHOP HILL - probably one of the most realistic and grittiest portrayals of infantry combat to take to the screen before the current generation of war films (SPR, Band of Brothers, Stalingrad, Platoon, etc.)

[ February 17, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[PiggDogg]

Michael,

Hackworth? First name? & where can I find some of his work? :confused:

Cheers, Richard

[PiggDogg]

Michael,

Even at 50% of troopers firing, a few people put out a lot of firepower.

I have never been in combat, but I do remember in my US Army Reserve rifle range training, a few of us with M-16 on single shot fire absolutely beat the crappe out of targets. I would not have wanted to be on the receiving end of angry fire. :eek:

Ah yes, I remember Pork Chop Hill with Gregory Peck. That was a great flick. :cool:

Cheers, Richard

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Michael,

Hackworth? First name? & where can I find some of his work? :confused:

Cheers, Richard

David Hackworth. Here's his website- Hack .

[jeffsmith]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Michael,

Hackworth? First name? & where can I find some of his work? :confused:

Cheers, Richard

Hackworth David H.

Amazon Link

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-keywords=hackworth&bq=1/102-8336511-8665720

[BloodyBucket]

There have been quite a few Marshall threads. There are several indications that he was very sloppy in his gathering of evidence for his statistics, perhaps even fabricating them to back his thesis that small unit cohesion deserved greater attention in training. I feel that this does not automatically invalidate his basic idea,

and post WWII training has been better for the attention that "Men Against Fire" got at the time.

Peter Mansoor devotes some attention to this in "The GI Offensive In Europe", his 1999 book about American infantry divisions. It is worth a read. Mansoor is not shy about pointing out the problems in American units, but he rejects the "Germans were smashed by superior numbers" theme.

With the recent release of "Blackhawk Down", a movie that depicts a 1993 engagement where the U.S.-Somali kill ratio was on the order of 19-500 or so, without massive artillery support (although with helicopter air support) it is interesting to ponder if the emphasis on small unit cohesion brought on by "Men Against Fire" is a bad thing, even if Marshall was given to telling fish stories, and passing them off as authentic.

[PiggDogg]

Bucket,

I guess Peter Mansoor can be found at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, & such, or at other locations? :confused:

Cheers, Richard

[BloodyBucket]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Bucket,

I guess Peter Mansoor can be found at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, & such, or at other locations? :confused:

Cheers, Richard

I would guess so. I got my copy at the Fort Lewis library (Grandstaff). They have an impressive collection of military books of all kinds.

[PiggDogg]

Bucket,

Thanks.

But darn, Fort Lewis is a somewhat decent length jaunt from New Orleans. :eek:

However, I'm leaving now. Should be there shortly.

Cheers, Richard

[Kanonier Reichmann]

A little known factoid here but apparently the fictional character Colonel Killgore in Apocalypse Now was based on the real life Hackworth and his exploits in Vietnam.

Another interesting thing is that Hackworth is now an avowed pacifist who absolutely decrys Americas involvement in Vietnam and his contribution to that war.

Regards

Jim R.

[BloodyBucket]

I find it hard to believe that Hackworth would describe himself as an "avowed pacifist".

[gunnergoz]

Comparisons between soldier stats of WW2 era and today do not take into account the fact that soldiers today are trained to fire weapons reactively to enemy actions. It's the old Pavlovian theory of building autonomous reactions that will work automatically under stress and without thought or hesitation. GI's today are much more likely to fire their weapons than their WW2 or Korean (or even Vietnam) counterparts because they have been conditioned to do so. The hard part can be turning them off once they get started.

[BloodyBucket]

That training that you mention is at least in part a reaction to Marshall's book. Perhaps modern media, society and weapons make a GI more likely to fire than his WII grandfather, but the training has changed a lot, and like him or not, Marshall's book had an influence on that.

[SGT_Gold]

One of the things SLAM pointed out was that better training got better results in terms of rounds down range. Two very good books on the general subject of the psychology of killing are:

On Killing

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

Back Bay Books

IBSN 0-316-33000-0

An Intimate History of Killing

Joanna Bourke

Basic Books

ISBN 0-465-00737-6

[BloodyBucket]

The Grossman book is very interesting. I haven't read the other you mention.

If I recall, Grossman postulates that the reactive and repetitious nature of some computer "shooter" games means that we are raising a generation of kids preconditioned to kill.

My performance at these games is a depressing indication of my abilities as a warrior, I'm afraid.

[windstarz]

Hackworth's main bitch is the military spends too much on high tech and neglects the grunts. He says there are way too many perfumed princes in the higher echelons. Apocalypse Now character wasn't much like Hackworth except I guess in his rebellion against the authorities. Plus AN was actually based on Heart of Darkness , a tale of British escapade in Africa. They just used the Vietnam war as the setting.

Hackworth has an excellent book on his Army career called About Face, I think it was.

[Armdchair]

I think it's much more likely that the Col. Kilgore character was based on Lt. Col. John B. Stockton, 1/9 Cavalry . Here’s a description of him from J.D. Coleman’s “Pleiku: The Dawn of Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam” (p.26):” Balding, rawhide- lean, just under six feet tall, [stockton] had the handlebar mustache of the old time cavalryman. When viewed without his headgear, he looked a lot like a Yul Brynner with facial hair. Years later those who knew him during his days with the 11th and 1st Cavalry swore he must have been the model for the air cavalry commander depicted in the movie Apocalypse Now.” The book goes on to say he ordered up black cavalry hats for all his men and crossed sabers insignia for all his officers. He participated in the 1965 Ia Drang Campaign described in Lt. General (ret.) Harold G. Moore’s book.“We Were Soldiers Once and Young”. No mention of any predilection for either Wagner or surfing. If you listen close during the end of the beach barbecue scene in “Apocalypse Now” you can actually hear someone, possibly Duvall’s Col. Kilgore saying “First of the Ninth! Air Cavalry! Airmobile!” Hackworth served with the 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne in Vietnam in 1965 and later as a Bn CO of 4/39th Inf. in 1969.

[SpazManOught]

Do you think the Somali troop s discussed unit cohesion at this kind of intellectual level....? Makes you think how much better modern European and Northern American Troops must be....than the rest of the world.

[Munter]

Here is some additional info of this subject. Do you personally know anyone who would qualify?

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/MayJun99/Pierson.htm

[felixgrey]

Just passing through when I spotted your thread.

Very good stuff here. I find it interesting because I know two of the individuals who you are citing. Peter Mansoor was my squadron commander in 1/10 Cav, 4ID. A decent commander and a good historian. I currently work with now LTC Pierson in the 1st ID. I've never read this Natural Killers piece. Thanks for bringing it up. It gives me a new perspective into an already interesting working relations ship.

V/R

CPT Scott Synowiez

1ID

[PiggDogg]

Munter,

Thanks for reccommending the "Natural Killers" article. It was quite interesting and most informative and enlightening. :eek: :eek:

Cheers, Richard :cool: :cool:

[Munter]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Munter,

Thanks for reccommending the "Natural Killers" article. It was quite interesting and most informative and enlightening.

Why, thank you! It opens a new "human" perspective in the combat situation instead of wrapping it up in all this frequent techno-Mumbo-Jumbo, doesn't it?

Actually, I got the article in printed form from my ex-girlfriend a few years back. She suggested that I started looking for other hobbies and used this article as an authoritative and warning quote.

Boy, did she fail!

[buckshyesh]

I remember some mention of the Natural Killer (NK) in John Keegan's "Face of Battle." IIRC, he wrote that, after D-Day, senior military personnel realized that only a small percentage of their men were firing their weapons. So they began organizing the forces into fire teams that included at least one NK. The rest could be expected to carry supplies and amunition, lay down covering fire and serve as alternative targets.

From a CM perspective:

1. In a Rifle Team, which weapon would the NK use?

2. For each casualty incurred, shouldn't there be a chance that it's the NK, which would decrease the unit's effectiveness substantially? (On the other hand, Paratroop Teams and Squads would have more NK's, so they could be expected to remain effective despite NK losses.)

[Barrold]

I have to disagree with the description of Col. David Hackworth as a pacifist.

Having read his autobiography and seen him on television commentaries many times along with visiting his website, his views are plain to see and they are not pacifism.

His primary focus is the treatment of veterans and the reforming of the military for the benefit of not only the taxpayer, but for the ultimate improvement of the military so when it is called to perform its duty, it has the best equipment, competent leaders, and that the worst experiences his 56 years of military experience (as soldier and writer) are not repeated by the same kind of mistakes he has personally seen.

He is adament about the causes he advocates and a genuinely impressive person above and beyond being a very highly decorated veteran of many conflicts since enlisting in the army at 15.

Check out his website and read the columns he has written, and his views will be clear to anyone concerned.

BDH