Cheating

[Psyched]

One of the many great things about CMBO is the WEGO principle. It prevents unscrupulous email opponents from downloading the same turn and playing it over and over again until the desired result is achieved.

However, now that I've completed a handful of PBEM games, there appears to be at least two other ways a dishonest email opponent can cheat. My purpose is NOT to "teach" someone how to cheat--anyone intent on cheating would have already figured these loopholes out. Instead, I want to see if I'm wrong (it's possible that there are ways to prevent this cheating which I'm not aware of) and to generate discussion on how this might be prevented in CMBB.

I apologize in advance if this subject matter has already been discussed in previous threads. I searched for it but couldn't find anything.

1) The first situation involves Player A generating a QB and letting the computer choose the units. Player A saves the setup file in the PBEM Directory and sends it to Player B. However, Player A can himself reopen this file, and since it's not yet password protected by Player B, Player A can now view all of the forces given Player B. Since Player A's files are password protected from the very beginning, Player B cannot similiarly view Player A's forces.

The only solution I can think of is to add an extra step at the beginning to allow Player B to password-protect all of his files from the start.

Burdensome? Yes.

Time-consuming? Yes.

Prevents cheating? Maybe.

2) The second situation involves Player A generating a QB to send to Player B. Let's say that Player A assigns himself as the Axis Attacker, but he also rather ungraciously gives himself an "Attacker +25%" Handicap bonus without telling Player B. Now my ignorance may embarass me on this one, but I don't see any way for Player B to check this during gameplay. For instance, there's no Hotkey for "Checking Setup Parameters" to make sure that the initially agreed upon conditions were actually inputted at the setup. Again, I might be wrong, but I fail to see how Player B can double check it.

Now, I know that some people will respond to this post by saying things like, "Only play with people you trust" or "Having to assume that your opponent has integrity is just part of the game".

Well, there's a ring of truth to all that, but let's be realistic here. Most of us find opponents through message boards or Ladder websites. There's just no way to know about the integrity of someone you've never met before. The competitiveness on this very message board suggests that some people are willing to win (or always be right) at any cost.

I would appreciate any feedback or comments from members. I may very well have missed all the easy answers to these issues. It wouldn't be the first time I made a mistake of that nature!

"I'm always willing to learn, but sometimes I don't like being taught"

---Winston Churchill

[Dirtweasle]

1) I think the game re-draws on opening, but am not sure. Someone will no doubt know this, I guess you could try it a few times and see, I've never really give it much thought.

EDIT: I'll be, you can go in and look and not have it change the next time.

2) You get a message that the the play balance has been altered if that were to happen.

EDIT: Yep, that's what I thought.

[ June 17, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Dirtweasle ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I found out number 1) is true by accident during the Invitational. A very real drawback.

It was probably caused by Charles not having enough time to code it properly because there were whiners and complainers on the forum begging and pleading for CMBO to be released....

[ June 17, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Psyched]

Dirtweasle

Thanks for checking it out.

There appears to be no solution for Situation #1.

Situation #2 did have an easy answer, so thanks for providing it to me.

[WWB]

In any PBEM you have to have some measure of trust with your opponent, just for the simple reason that they have sole possession of the game file for a period. Yes, computer picks can be compromised, and scenarios can be previewed. So play fine upstanding people you can trust.

WWB

[Agua]

May be naivety on my part, but if the quality of the posts on the forum are a measure of CM players, and I think to some extent those posts do reflect the quality of players, cheaters are likely few and far between in the CM community. I've never heard (or read, as the case may be) of a single rumor concerning anyone actually going into the data files and changing values (if that can even be done) in some manner the way it occurs in ALL FPS games.

[Olle Petersson]

Read my analysis on the issue in this thread.

Cheers

Olle

[Kuma of Finland]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

In any PBEM you have to have some measure of trust with your opponent, just for the simple reason that they have sole possession of the game file for a period. Yes, computer picks can be compromised, and scenarios can be previewed. So play fine upstanding people you can trust.

Now that I've started playing against human through PBEM I've found out that the un-known factor (what troops opponent has picked, what he's up etc.) is the most exciting factor here. I personally just enjoy this kind of gaming. :cool:

As WWB points out (thanks for that!), scenarios can be previewed - but it spoils the fun IMO, period. I'm now playing the scenario Opportunity Knocks and it has proven to be real surprise for me as all kind of unexpected things are happening. Wow, that's really exciting (like where the heck did THAT grenade come from)

And also hand-picking own forces or repeating choose until satisfied _and_ viewing opponent's computer picked force is inferior and such persons should be tied to the pole for some rubber chicken whipping (No, no personal desires here LOL)

I have to admit that in my first games I had one no-restrictions game that I played with two different players. At that time I just thought it would be fun to see how two different people play the same game against me. I also played the game against myself to see the terrain effect. But I didn't realize then that this is not-so-fair thing to do. Sorry for that - after all I just wanted to learn - not be gamey and try to win by cheating.

And from now on if I want to play the same QB/scenario against some other player I surely will tell him/her about my previous gaming and ask whether this is ok or not.

As WWB pointed out - the trust is the major key. I still want to (and will) trust my opponents that they're not cheating as mentioned above or even worse: encode/decrypt the pbem files in order to tweak the battle. Finding such a cheating person will end up to the whipping mentioned above...

Cheers for fair and square fights!

/kuma

[Vanir Ausf B]

BTS has said they are trying to alter the setup proceedure to fix this as well as prevent the same sort of thing happening with the new variable rarity feature. Last we heard they were not sure if they would have time to fit it in. Let's hope.

[Grimthane]

Please excuse me if I'm off beam here, but I was under the impression that getting a 3rd party to do you a map and picks got around the possibility of 1st player cheats.

I know it's a trifle inconvenient, but it's good for swap-sides rematches and/or AARs, no?

[Olle Petersson]

As I noticed; a QB where both sides pick their own troops, and the troop quality of the 2nd player is set beforehand, is as fair as it gets.

There's no way to cheat without cracking the encryption.

Cheers

Olle

[WWB]

A corallary to knowing what computer picked forces someone has:

Is it an advantage? Yes.

Is it decisive? No.

Just because he knows you have 2 ATGs does not mean your opponent knows where you put them. He will know he has to look out for two of them. But he will still have to find them the hard way. Since the computer picked his forces, it does not give away his strategy, etc.

In situations where this really matters, such as tournaments, there are some procedures to follow to create a game with passwords for both sides.

WWB

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

I found that consistently playing those you trust lends to not worrying about such things like force selection etc. I trust my Peng brothers and know that they won't cheat. They beat me fair and square each and every time. Of course, in the off chance I might actually win, I'm being gamey.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

As I noticed; a QB where both sides pick their own troops, and the troop quality of the 2nd player is set beforehand, is as fair as it gets.

There's no way to cheat without cracking the encryption.

Not true. You can't see the forces picked, but you can see the map.

[Gen-x87H]

If somebody had the time and energy. They could figure out how the .txt file is built. Then run through the said file and make sure thier tanks never missed, troops always inflicted the most amount of damage ect.....

But again this community appears to be above the annoying hax0r tricks of the kiddy 1st person shooter games.

Thank you

Gen

[Le Tondu]

Personally, I do not understand why anyone cheats at a computer game. Yeah, you win a game. Big deal! It is only a game.

What does someone really win when they cheat? I mean the game says someone in particular "won", but is it a real win? If given a fair opportunity, they won't be able to "win" without cheating, so their sense of "superiority" is inferior and inaccurate at best. They really didn't win when they cheated they just made things look like they won --and that isn't real winning.

The truth is they lost when they cheated. They most likely lost an opportunity for a new friend. They lost a good chance for having any self-respect. They lost the game --its just that the opponent that didn't cheat won't know it.

Will he care? I think not because he will most likely have a feeling that things weren't right and then he will try even harder the next time --mostly with someone else. The way that I see it, the cheating of the original player actually helps the "losing" player in the long run by making him try harder to be a better player.

SO, I ASK YOU NOW. WHO REALLY WINS --IN THE END, WHEN SOMEONE CHEATS??

[Doug Beman]

SO, I ASK YOU NOW. WHO REALLY WINS --IN THE END, WHEN SOMEONE CHEATS??

I do!

DjB

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

If somebody had the time and energy. They could figure out how the .txt file is built. Then run through the said file and make sure thier tanks never missed, troops always inflicted the most amount of damage ect.....

But again this community appears to be above the annoying hax0r tricks of the kiddy 1st person shooter games.

Thank you

Gen

Fortunately it is not that easy. Even if the turn is send in ASCII, it is (AFAIK) encoded and compressed. Of course, every code can be broken, but I think the effort and the benefit is in no senseful propotion. Don't let us forget that we talk about a game, and there is only one person on the world that really knows how it works.

Beside that, to know the map or the enemy forces can be an advantage, but IMO, at last depents all on your and your opponents abilitys. Hitler for example wasted whole armys for senseless propaganda issues and rashly actions, like Stalingrad or Kursk.