Getting my A$$ kicked

[antawar]

Hi everyone,

The only battles I've been able to win are the iron roadblock and a warm place to sleep as the germans. Every quickbattle I've played has ended up in slow, murderous advances with me finally out of ammo or having taken too much attrition and stalled in front of the objective. I was an above average combat mission player before that.

QB as the finns, in the snow.. with infantry only and support weapon is next to impossible. The guys are on skis, they are fast... but when they lose the skis (unavoidable) they end up tyring to advance though snow with advance and assault commands useless since they tire the soldiers in just 20 meters. Also, the ratio of attacker to defender is 1:1. I took veteran finns and the russians low qwuality troops but it has the side effect of evening up the numerical odds in favor of the defender. Believe me, attacking through snow with two veteran platoon supported by 2 batteries of 81 mortars + 2 light machien guns and one Maxim is not enough to beat a well entrenched soviet green infantry company supported by two machine guns and a 45 mm gun. I've tried three times with different strategies. THe ratio was actually 1:1.2 in favor of the defender. This should be addressed as all were attack scenarios where the odds should be higher. Even taking less experienced troops is not enough to increase the ratio in favor of the attacker. Well, This game demonstrate the validity of the military axiom of a ratio of 3:1 if you want to make a successfull attack.

PS. I won't even mention the scenario cemetary hill were my germans were slaughtered. Not enough firepower. I think the object of the scenario is to decide when it's wise to withdraw and come back with stronger forces since this is a probe scenario.

[second amendment]

Did you launch a frontal attack at cemetery hill?

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by antawar:

I was an above average combat mission player before that.

Velcome to zee ost front herr hauptmann.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by second amendment:

Did you launch a frontal attack at cemetery hill?

Yes, I'd be interested as well - please remember to put spoiler warnings up. You can also discuss it in this thread.

Cheers,

Andreas

[Rickovich]

Haven't played those 2 but worst I've done is get a draw vs AI.Lots of wins,but I've been playing my friend over a lan alot as well.He's learning... .Btw I've played both sides,it's all in the tactics.

[smythe11]

antawar,

Try "Directive # 3" as the Germans. Take your time with the set-up (always), read the briefing carefully, and above all, be patient and take your time. You'll have a blast. Then, after you're feeling mighty tough, try it as the Russians.

[Kallimakhos]

QB as the finns, in the snow.. with infantry only and support weapon is next to impossible. The guys are on skis, they are fast... but when they lose the skis (unavoidable) they end up tyring to advance though snow with advance and assault commands useless since they tire the soldiers in just 20 meters. Also, the ratio of attacker to defender is 1:1. I took veteran finns and the russians low qwuality troops but it has the side effect of evening up the numerical odds in favor of the defender. Believe me, attacking through snow with two veteran platoon supported by 2 batteries of 81 mortars + 2 light machien guns and one Maxim is not enough to beat a well entrenched soviet green infantry company supported by two machine guns and a 45 mm gun. I've tried three times with different strategies. THe ratio was actually 1:1.2 in favor of the defender. This should be addressed as all were attack scenarios where the odds should be higher. Even taking less experienced troops is not enough to increase the ratio in favor of the attacker. Well, This game demonstrate the validity of the military axiom of a ratio of 3:1 if you want to make a successfull attack.

[/QB]

You right, as a rule succesfull frontal attacks in snow can't be done and wasn't done by the Finns. Suomussalmi was special in many ways, and it was during Winter war, not Continuation war (CMBB). Russians tried it a lot in Winter war and got slaughtered. In Continuation war all the big fighting happended during summer.

If you want to use ski troops in attack to their maximum effect, choose a large map, lot's of woods, limited visibility, heavy recon and then flank, flank flank. Haven't got the game yet, but historically this should work even with 1:1 ratio or even worse, attacker having better experience and fittnes. Not being able to get back on ski's is a problem after a skirmish, but that's something one must live with and come up with ways not to lose ski's before reaching a good position for surprise attack. For example: advande in que leading with half squad, if and when face enemy fire, leave the half squad to shoot and flank again with the rest. On a small map just don't bother with ski's, they're no use.

[pathfinder]

You wanna play the Finns? Try Lake Ladoga....you'll love it (as the Finns)....

not gonna say no more other than "Those crazy Finns!" *shakes head*

[StellarRat]

I've been able to win a couple as the Germans. The key is to spend most of your time and units shooting and only move a few unit when the enemy is well pinned. I seem to do best with three units shooting and one unit moving.

[AnonymousOxide]

Originally posted by antawar:

Hi everyone,

The only battles I've been able to win are the iron roadblock and a warm place to sleep as the germans

Does everyone play 'a warm place to sleep' as the Germans? You're supposed to go at it with the Russians, the Germans are way too easy to win with on that map.

As a rule of thumb, if the scenario says 'German attack', or anything similar to that, then you play Germans, not Russians unless otherwise noted.

[antawar]

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Hi, I played the Cemetary Hill scenario four times (yeah, I'm obsessed) and the last time I managed "only" a tactical defeat as the germans: my best result. :mad: I had the 75mm gun and the two mg-34 in the woods providing covering fire for my recon platoon and the 3 skd-222 and the spw-251-10 advancing right in the middle. Lot's of heavy infantry fire came in immediately and the recon platoon fell back in disarray with heavy casualties. Meanwhile, I had the other recon platoon making a flanking maneuver to the far right and it worked. it wiped out the mortars and the guns (since it was the fourth time I played, the free to deploy option was on). Then I decided on the main attack after my mg-34 and my armored units had softened up the defenders in the central part of the town. The pionners made good progress at first under the cover of smoke. But when they came close to the first demolished house (I had the 75mm gun destroy many houses) a maxim MG that I thought dead (1 men left) opened up for the far left and pinned down my men. Then all hell broke loose and the one AFV left alive (2 other were destroyed and one had it's gun torn off) withdrew. The MG-34's were not enough to provide effective suppression and the russian infantry massacred my pioners in view of their objective (the trench). Meanwhile, the platoon doing the flanking maneuver managed to get into the first building but soon found itself unable to advance (too small) and that was it.

Next time I will do the following, the AFV's will keep some distance and supress the infantry in the middle of the town. The Mg-34 will suppress the same area. The two recon platoon will BOTH be providing supressive fire in addition to the vehicules, the 75mm gun and the MG's. After a 5-6 turns of hellish fire, I will lay smoke with the 75mm gun to the left and right of an assault corridor smack in the middle. The pioners will then proceed with an assault that will hopefully overwhelm the defenders already pinned down and supressed by unrelenting heavy fire. I think the key is: win the firepower battle then insert the infantry. I just wasn't laying enough supressive firepower and was splitting my force for no benefit. Concentration of firepower, isolation of an assault corridor with smoke then an assault. I hope it works.

[Rickovich]

Yes good approach that.Over stated and common sense I know but basic rule of thumb in tactical combat is:bringing as much firepower on the enemy while minimizing the exposure to same for your troops.All other things being equal will result in victory everytime.Also when available force selection can be key.Having such fun vs human opponent on lan.Battles becoming really even and pitched with minor victorys usually.I'm so happy to have Asl back as a 3d game.

[Speedy]

Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by antawar:

Hi everyone,

The only battles I've been able to win are the iron roadblock and a warm place to sleep as the germans

Does everyone play 'a warm place to sleep' as the Germans? You're supposed to go at it with the Russians, the Germans are way too easy to win with on that map.

As a rule of thumb, if the scenario says 'German attack', or anything similar to that, then you play Germans, not Russians unless otherwise noted.</font>

[Mannheim Tanker]

SPOILER

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I managed a tactical victory my third try at Cemetery Hill. The first two times were minor defeats (stalled out at the trenches, just short of the church). The key to victory is to avoid a frontal assault at all costs. If you attack the Russian lines frontally, you put yourself within range of nearly every Russian soldier and defensive point that they can bring to bear on you.

Consequently, I found it much easier to advance if I used the recon troops and support weapons (especially the 75mm IG) to lay down a base of fire along the (German) right flank. A few turns of routing the Russians on that flank will allow you to use the Pionere troops to assault and take the woods on the Russians' left (German right) flank. I use the recon troops as a support element because their firepower rating is much higher than the German engineers', so they pin, suppress, and route the Ruskies that much sooner. Once the Russian flank is taken, you'll find it much easier to advance "down the trenches" and subsequently eat up the Russian positions one at a time. Their fire lanes are usually laid out best to defend against a frontal attack, and not a flanking movement. Therefore it's much easier to suppress a few Russian units at a time (which means a flanking attack), knock them out, advance, rinse, wash and repeat. Before you know it, you'll be in church.

[ September 30, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Mannheim Tanker ]

[Boo Radley]

Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

As a rule of thumb, if the scenario says 'German attack', or anything similar to that, then you play Germans, not Russians unless otherwise noted.

This I did not know. I just played "Hill 321" (or whatever the number was) as the Russians (defending) and had an unbelievably easy time of it. Won 93-7.

Guess I'll have to try it as the Germans and get my hinder stomped.

I knew something was wrong. I mean the scenario was designed by Berli and it just wasn't evil enough.

[Kalar]

I can sympathize, Antawar. I got waxed 5-95 by the godless communists in 'Winter Wonderland'(see the Scenario Talk Forum) mostly because I couldn't maneuver my forces in the snow-lots of self inflicted sneaking leading to massive exhaustion leading to eliminated units...

My real reply is this:

Should seizing a VL be a prequisite for a Probe??

I say no, a Probe isn't an assualt, its a recon-by-fire mission to determine the defender's positioning, force mix, level of determination, etc. I think its unrealistic to expect a probe to crush an entrenched, and well supported, defensive position.

my .02

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Kalar:

Should seizing a VL be a prequisite for a Probe??

I say no, a Probe isn't an assualt, its a recon-by-fire mission to determine the defender's positioning, force mix, level of determination, etc. I think its unrealistic to expect a probe to crush an entrenched, and well supported, defensive position.

my .02

Perhaps not, but you're still scored based upon who controls the VL at game's end.

[antawar]

I tried your startegy manstein.. it failed miserably.. your win was a stroke of luck I think.. this scenario is unwinnable and unrealistic... you must do the impossible to win as the germans.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by antawar:

I tried your startegy manstein.. it failed miserably.. your win was a stroke of luck I think.. this scenario is unwinnable and unrealistic... you must do the impossible to win as the germans.

Que? Who is Manstein? Why is the scenario unwinnable if he has won? What is unrealistic about the Germans losing?

Answers on a postcard (since I will be in Rome).

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by AnonymousOxide:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by antawar:

Hi everyone,

The only battles I've been able to win are the iron roadblock and a warm place to sleep as the germans

Does everyone play 'a warm place to sleep' as the Germans? You're supposed to go at it with the Russians, the Germans are way too easy to win with on that map.

As a rule of thumb, if the scenario says 'German attack', or anything similar to that, then you play Germans, not Russians unless otherwise noted.</font>