Ostfront Colors - Bicolor or Tricolor?

[Bruno Weiss]

Was browsing through my Squadron Signal, Panzer Colors series for the East Front and noticed a subtle but distinctive difference in camo patterns used by the Germans in Russia and those used later in Europe.

I would qualify the speculation with an acknowledgement that a few pictures from a single publication series do not absolute history make. Never the less, there seems to be an appreciative difference in patterns and colors. For example, on the East front there seems to be more usage of bicolors, such as reddish brown pattern lines on dark yellow/sand, or gray patterns on dark yellow/sand, sometimes with olive/green mixed into the gray. Many variations of this pattern exist and definately seem to outnumber the tricolor patterns and ambush patterns. And, even when the examples show tricolor patterns, they look different somehow than their later West Front adaptations. Only a very few tricolor schemes seem to be on the order of what one might say were difficult to distinguish between East and West front camo.

Now am I seeing something, or as I said in the beginning are a few pictures just not enough to base such an opinion on?

[ December 02, 2002, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Michael Dorosh]

The campaign in the west started in June 1944 - but the Germans started using dark yellow in early 1943. I would suggest many of the bicolour schemes you see are from the midwar period, when the Germans started using yellow over the dark grey of early production vehicles.

Ny June 1944, the new vehicles were coming out of the factory in the new base colour. Since they were on the defensive after 1943, during the summer months, and aerial superiority was given over to the allies in most sectors, camouflage was more of a priority as well.

[Bruno Weiss]

I would agree with that Michael, and as the German situation in the East became increasingly more desperate it follows that their camo schemes would become increasingly more complex. I believe what Panzer Colors shows is the history if you will, of camo experimentation to some degree over a time line which lasted many years. About the time that the dark yellow/sand base coat became standard on German vehicles, it is obvious that they became much more concerned with camo patterns. But seemingly their patterns for quite a while consisted of bicolor schemes, often of the single line type (for lack of a technical term), where say dark brown, or gray, was used in a zebra or tortoise shell pattern and not very often did the scheme sport a third color or if so, it was a very basic addition and not nearly as complex as the West front or even later East front versions that would follow.

[ December 02, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, now lets make this a little bit controversial. Given the mods for CMBB thus far produced, does anyone agree with me that there seems to be a predominance of tricolor camo schemes on early German vehicle models? Because of their primary dates of use, e.g., earlier model Stugs, MkIV's, SPA's etc., and the apparent pattern/scheme progressions from a sampling of the pictorial record, shouldn't they infact be sporting bicolor patterns with more emphasis on gray/dark yellow single line or tortoise shell schemes, instead of the large brown/green/yellow mixes and ambush patterns?

[ December 02, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Torsten Spindler]

While I have no straight answer to your question I know that painting vehicles was most often done at platoon level. There is no standard or anything but for the original factory paint. To my knowledge no cammo paint was centrally issued, thus local availability of colors dominated schemes in use. Paint jobs could also have been made very sluggish, like just splashing paint over the vehicle.

[MikeyD]

Most mods seem to go towards the more esthetically pleasing camou schemes. A lot of spray-painted tri-color with gentle curves. Less of the brush applied quick-and-dirty camou types. What I'd like to see for is more hasty troop-applied green-on-grey schemes, battered mix-and-mismatched replacement skirts, etc.

There's a lot of work being done reworking Russian textures. I'd like to see some funky mid-war German Stugs show up too.

[illo]

Hi, bruno.

You inspired me.

Its supposed to be Stug IIIF(L48)with hasty and worn off red-brown/dark yellow overspray.

Is this any good? Should I upload it?

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by illo:

Hi, bruno.

You inspired me.

Its supposed to be Stug IIIF(L48)with hasty and worn off red-brown/dark yellow overspray.

Is this any good? Should I upload it?

Well, I like it. . . I'd love to see more "improvised" and "hasty" camo schemes. While I'm at it, I'd like to see more mods sporting minor damage like holes in Schuerzen, etc. . .

Good work,

YD

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by illo:

Hi, bruno.

You inspired me.

Its supposed to be Stug IIIF(L48)with hasty and worn off red-brown/dark yellow overspray.

Is this any good? Should I upload it?

I think it looks realy cool!

[Pzman]

I did that to some StuG mods in CMBO, but never put them out. It looks cool to have burn marks in the schuerzen!

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by illo:

Is this any good? Should I upload it?

Whoah! That StuG is sporting a reported 50 KILLS!!!!!!!

FYI, white bands represent 1 kill each, but a white on black band represents 10.

[illo]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Whoah! That StuG is sporting a reported 50 KILLS!!!!!!!

FYI, white bands represent 1 kill each, but a white on black band represents 10.

Well atleast my Stug IIIf/8s never seem to snuff it.

I will upload version with modest 14 kills (for your conscript stuggers) to Mod database.

All those fast enough may still get 50kill über Stug at http://www.cmmods.com

[ December 02, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: illo ]

[Michael Emrys]

Somebody with a better memory than mine tell me if I've got this right, but I believe I've read that when the Germans switched to sand yellow as the base coat, that was applied at the factory and the vehicle was issued with a couple cans of pigment that were soluble in gasoline to apply in the field, and these were one of green and one of brown. Of course, crews were also apt to scrounge whatever they could, so non-standard colors could show up.

I also have the notion that paint sprayers were issued as well, though how often these were actually available in the field would be problematical. Rags and sponges were also used to apply the paint.

Michael

[ December 02, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Michael emrys wrote:

...but I believe I've read that when the Germans switched to sand yellow as the base coat, that was applied at the factory and the vehicle was issued with a couple cans of pigment that were soluble in gasoline to apply in the field, and these were one of green and one of brown.

I dunno Michael, perhaps in the early years paint was issued with a vehicle, (but that wouldn't explain the green and brown pigments you cited which was used in later war schemes). I imagine that later war years saw a pretty scarce supply of spare stuff being issued with the vehicles. And, the preponderance of simple bicolor schemes in the photo record indicates that complex camo schemes were not the norm for early to mid-war years, and even into the later years on the East front.

I like this Stug above. But aye now show me a Stug in weathered bluish gray with a faded sand yellow wave patterns. Dats a speecy spicey! Ain't none of you guys got Panzer Colors?

The majority of camo patterns in the photo record seems to me to be those of simple, or hasty, camo schemes using what was probably most often a scarce source of vehicle paints in the supply depot inventory. The most striking examples in the Panzer Colors books are the sand yellow and gray patterns, very pleasing to the eye with the bluish gray patterns over sand yellow particularly where they are weathered a bit.

[ December 02, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Bastables]

"To comply with a general order dated 19 Aug 1944, All Panthers were to be painted with a standardized camo pattern prior to being shipped from the assembly plants. Every effort was made to deliver part of the Aug consignment of Panthers with this new "Ambush" camouflage pattern." (Jentz 1995)

Prior to this Troops received Panthers with Dunkelgleb RAL 7028 (Dark yellow) paint with individual units applying their own camouflage pattern from water souluble pastes of Olivgrun and Rotbraun. The General order of 19 Aug 1944 marked a turning point in that hence forwards camo pattern were applied before the troops received them.

Mid Sep 1944, Panthers left the Assembly plants without Dunkelgleb base coat. Camo patterns of Dunkelgelb/Dunkelgrau, Olivgrun and Rotbraun were directly applied to the red oxide primer at the Assembly plants.

[Sgt. Steiner]

OK, I've a question. Did the Germans really run out of dunkelgrau in '43, or just decide to go with dunkelgelb for some other reason?

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner:

OK, I've a question. Did the Germans really run out of dunkelgrau in '43, or just decide to go with dunkelgelb for some other reason?

Dark yellow (dunkelgelb) because it's a "neutral" colour blends into backgrounds better then dark grey, poor contrast with shadows and sunlight relative to dark grey.

Dark grey stocks were actually bigger than Dark yellow. This resulted in Dark grey being substituted for dark yellow in factory applied Panther camo schemes applied over red oxide primer during '45.

[ December 03, 2002, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Sgt. Steiner]

Ah, thanks for the info. I had read somewhere that the reason for going to dark yellow was because they had literally ran out of dark grey due to wartime shortages. Learn something new every day on this board..