Rocket Artillery time delays

[Soddball]

At the risk of nudging my FAQ off the second page aswell as the first, I have today been larking about merrily in the scenario editor.

I had a spin with the large german rocket arty (just to see what they were like). If you haven't used them, they have two salvos of 36 rockets each (72 ammo). You plot your target and a rain of 36 rockets comes crashing down in a huge area.

The time delay is then bumped up to between 5 and 15 minutes, which I assume is the time to reload?

However, if, instead of allowing the spotter to fire his second salvo, I untarget him, and if I then go through 10 turns and retarget him, the time delay is still between 5 and 15 minutes.

If it's the case that this time delay is reloading, then what have my rocket firing chaps been up to?

If it isn't the case that this time delay is reloading, can someone tell me what it is please?

[Robohn]

Rockets take a long time to target. The Russian 82mm rockets took one of my spotters 17 minutes to plot. I was playing a meeting engagement, and took the rockets planning on having a round one bombardment. Silly me, I forgot you can't do round one bombardment in meeting engagements.

[Soddball]

They certainly do take a long time to target. However, I was larking about in the scenario editor and I had my crack rocket spotters targetting their shots on TRPs. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

First column is turn number, second is what the spotter is up to, third is what the reloading crew is up to.

T# ---Spotter-------Reloading Crew

1 --- Target ----------- Nothing

2 --- Rockets hit ----- Reloading

3 --- 5 mins delay --- Reloading

4 --- 4 mins delay --- Reloading

5 --- 3 mins delay --- Reloading

6 --- 2 mins delay --- Reloading

7 --- 1 min delay ---- Reloading

8 --- Target ----------- Nothing

9 --- Empty ----------- Go to pub

This is what should happen, if I'm understanding it correctly. However, what I got was:

T# ---Spotter-------Reloading Crew

1 --- Target ---------- Nothing

2 --- Rockets hit ---- Reloading

3 --- No target ------- Clean nails

4 --- No target ------- Brush hair

5 --- No target ------- Polish shoes

6 --- No target ------- Check for lice

7 --- 5 mins delay ---- Reloading

8 --- 4 mins delay ---- Reloading

9 --- 3 mins delay ---- Reloading

10--- 2 mins delay ---- Reloading

11--- 1 min delay ----- Reloading

12--- Target ----------- Nothing

13--- Empty ----------- Go to pub

IF, as I suspect, the time delay is due to reloading, then what was going on between turns 3 to 6 in the second example?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

A very good question.

Maybe they are saying that once a target is declared, then, and only then, can the fuzing, etc be put into effect, and that takes a few minutes.

Or, possibly rockets can't be loaded and left ready 'cuz it runs down the battery to electrically fire them , or somesuch.

Would love to hear "why" on this from the voice of authority.

[Soddball]

*bump* to get more feedback, and cos I'm in a bumping mood.

[Michael Emrys]

Hope you find something out, Soddy. I haven't a clue myself as I have yet to use rockets and so haven't observed the phenomena in question. Just thought I'd give your thread a friendly little bump.

Michael

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

A very good question.

Maybe they are saying that once a target is declared, then, and only then, can the fuzing, etc be put into effect, and that takes a few minutes.

Or, possibly rockets can't be loaded and left ready 'cuz it runs down the battery to electrically fire them , or somesuch.

Would love to hear "why" on this from the voice of authority.

Sounds valid- I also wonder what the real deal is?

[Soddball]

*bump* to put this one back on the main page, and to see if I get any feedback.

I also like having four threads on page 1.

Call me daddy!

[Dschugaschwili]

Looks like another rocket artillery bug. Until now I only knew that Russian rocket artillery can fire more rockets than it has tubes at the same time. It always fires all ammo in a single salvo without ever having to reload.

Dschugaschwili

[zukkov]

nah, it's not a bug. here's a scenario.

lieutenant: "ok men, nice shooting. reload for the next salvo".

corporal: "hey lieutenant, the fo's called off the barrage, shall we continue reloading? i don't know about you, but it's awful (hot/cold/whatever) out here, how bout we go inside and have a smoke?"

lt: "good idea corporal. do we have any american cigarettes?"

corporal: "nah, only these russian ones. but hey, beats the hell out of reloading those damn rockets!"

lt: "damn straight! man, i need a vacation!"

....

[Soddball]

Oh, now I feel so much better.

[Fly Pusher]

Firstly let me point out that I have no Über-Grogie insider knowledge.

However I do have a potential explanation that I would like to suggest:

Once a rocket battery fired, and didnt have immediate ordres to fire again wouldnt they pack up and be ready to scoot quickly just in case potential counter-battery fire was on its way ? After all, rockets do leave a big long smoke trail indicating quite clearly where they originated.

I would suggest that they wouldnt unpack, fuse and load big fat HE rockets and have them sitting out in the open. What would then happen when the first counter-battery ranging rounds came in ? Big KABOOM ??.

Rather I think it is appropriate that they do NOT reload if they don't have orders indicating that they were about to be fired.

Just a thought

[Michael Emrys]

That gets the most original guess of the day award.

Michael

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

That gets the most original guess of the day award.

Michael

Wild minks.

One of the major rocket factories would sometimes get rabid minks in the tubes. (They'd come in from the forest near the factory and space-out on propellents.) The minks would often hibernate within the tubes, but the act of loading could wake a frenzied killing machine. Crews didn't remove rockets from the shipping containers untill right before they were loaded, so any minks wouldn't have time to become fully roused before firing.

Rocket crews had more casualties from rabies than any other cause.

[zukkov]

now THAT'S the most original guess of the day! and imagine, all i thought they were doing was taking a smoke break! lol...

[Andrew H.]

Maybe they were putting out all of the fires set by the rocket exhaust.

[Soddball]

All exciting suggestions, but not really what I was looking for.

I think you're confusing the American mink with the Indo-European mink, which would never have fitted into a German rocket-rail or rocket-tube system.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

Looks like another rocket artillery bug. Until now I only knew that Russian rocket artillery can fire more rockets than it has tubes at the same time. It always fires all ammo in a single salvo without ever having to reload.

Dschugaschwili

Nothing personal to you, but I don't think the use of the word bug is not entirely appropriate here.

It could very well be we're not talking about BUGs here (the soviet rocket artillery BUG doesn't seem to be a BUG for example), in fact I would say that the consistent use of the word BUG for features that don't work as the poster expects amounts to panicmongering.

[Heartland]

I think Fly Pusher gets partly credit, for how the Katyushas operated, but still no good explanation for what the crew are doing hanging about. From the veteran page of "The Russian Battlefield", interview with Semion Aria:

----

Have you seen "Katiushas" fire over open sights?

Yes, but very rarely because it was risky, and Katiushas were valuable. After all, a Katiusha completely unmasks itself when firing, it raises a large pillar of smoke. That's why we tried to fire only during the dark time. If we fired during the day, the probability of enemy hitting our position increased. That's why Katiushas didn't have stationary firing positions. They had shelters where they stood, and from which they drove out to the firing position. They left immediately after each salvo, so that there wouldn't be time for the enemy to hit them. Also, as a rule, we fired right from the wheels, without using the required supports.

(...)

How much time between salvos was needed to reload a Katiusha?

Not much at all. Maybe 15-20 minutes. A Katiusha crew consisted of 5 men. They managed quickly -- loaded and then, right before firing, inserted squibs into the shells.

Did you ever fire a second salvo from the same spot?

It happened, but rarely. Usually we tried to fire and leave. We preferred to drive away and load somewhere behind a hillock than fire again from the same spot.

----

So clearly, they were not afraid of killer minks thawing out by loading before firing...

[Foxbat]

To topic, it appears that the issue here is that a rocket battery has a long (5-15min) preparatory time that is used every time it is going to fire a salvo. That seems to make sense in gameterms.

Vergeltungswaffe has given some good possible reasons for why that would happen IRL, and I would also like to point out that the battery doesn't (can't) know that you are going to request another fire mission.

And I doubt they're going to reload the tubes and stay on alert for the next hour or so just because you might call another strike.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Heartland:

How much time between salvos was needed to reload a Katiusha?

Not much at all. Maybe 15-20 minutes. A Katiusha crew consisted of 5 men. They managed quickly -- loaded and then, right before firing, inserted squibs into the shells.

Now that's perception for you 15-20 minutes isn't long? Maybe not for the work they were doing but compared to regular arty (or even Nebelwerfers) that's an eternity

For the russian rocket artillery that would mean that a possible reload time (currently they don't have any) would be: firing time (1 min) + time to relocate (10 to 30 minutes depending on circumstance*) + reload time (15-20 min), say 25-50 turns.

* could be shorter (5-15) if you take prepared positions in consideration, but also has to include setting up, getting new coordinates, aligning to the rest of the battery, etc.

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

Looks like another rocket artillery bug. Until now I only knew that Russian rocket artillery can fire more rockets than it has tubes at the same time. It always fires all ammo in a single salvo without ever having to reload.

Dschugaschwili

Nothing personal to you, but I don't think the use of the word bug is not entirely appropriate here.

It could very well be we're not talking about BUGs here (the soviet rocket artillery BUG doesn't seem to be a BUG for example), in fact I would say that the consistent use of the word BUG for features that don't work as the poster expects amounts to panicmongering.</font>

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

...Now, as far as I understand the game, the value listed under "number of tubes" in the info window is the number of projectiles this particular type of artillery can fire at once without reloading. Right?

Dschugaschwili[/QB]

For the Katyusha, it is possible that the "Number of tubes", which when referencing regular artillery means the physical number of guns, means number of ZIL trucks, each of which can mount 12 or 14 or 16 rocket tubes depending on the model IIRC. So an FO for 3 'tubes' could translate to 3 ZIL trucks with 12 rocket tubes a piece, or 36 rockets per salvo. Just a possibility, but maybe we can entice the guys into giving us The Answer...

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

Nothing personal to you, but I don't think accusing me of panicmongering is entirely appropriate here.

I'm not accusing you of panicmongering, but the problem is that indiscriminate and repetetive use of the term bug leads to myths and misunderstandings and an impression that the game is broken where it isn't. Such behavior should be avoided unless the game is known to be broken.

There are several posters who exhibit this behavior consistently and they are the real panicmongerers, but I don't think we should take the bug-calling lightly.

Now, as far as I understand the game, the value listed under "number of tubes" in the info window is the number of projectiles this particular type of artillery can fire at once without reloading. Right?

Under normal circumstances, yes.

If this assumption is correct, then there should not be a unit in the game that is capable of firing more projectiles per salvo than listed under number of tubes. Right?

Not unless there is a reason for it.

However, there are such units. Now, you can call it whatever you want, but if what I said above is right, the game is wrong in this regard. Usually such a thing is called a bug.

The game is "wrong" unless, there is a reason for this unit to operate differently.

In this case it makes perfect sense as the russian rocket artillery can't reload (and rarely did so historically) and was historically often reinforced (and I don't think there is a FO in the game with enough tubes to replicate a Katyusha strike as would be used by a Gds Mortar division ).

So the result of this "bug" is realistic, and there is no indication as of yet that it wasn't intentional, so I guess that makes it a feature .

You may have noticed that I have mentioned two possible ways of "fixing" it because I'm not sure how the right behaviour would look like. I wouldn't even mind if Steve or Madmatt or whoever said that they consider this issue to be so small that fixing it wasn't worthwile.

It would be nice to have an official word on this, not on if this is going to be fixed, but if it needs fixing.

[ October 25, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Foxbat]

Herr Oberst, the issue is slightly different. To quote from an earlier thread:

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

[..]

1. I noticed that Russian rocket artillery spotters always fire all their ammo in a single volley, even if they have extra ammo (set by the scenario designer) that exceeds the number of tubes listed in the info window. German spotters (who have more ammo than tubes by default) work as expected.

Now, either the Russians should have a reload delay between salvos or this is intentional, but then the listed number of tubes should probably read "unlimited" in the info window..

So what it comes down to is: is the difference intentional? Probably (imho). If so the no. of launchers listed in the info window may not be correct for all situations and calling that buggy seems overkill to me.

[ October 25, 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]