How to use flame units effectively.....

[Ryan Crierie]

After some playing around, I have found

a formula that works for the German

player.

Flamethrower infantry is useless, except

in pre-positioned defensive zones.

Flammpanzers (Hetzers with flame) are

near worthless except in nasty near-zero

visibility situations where their heavy

armor compared to the other german flame

units offsets their virtually zero viz

buttoned up.

First, DO NOT COMMIT your flame units, even

Hetzers until you are 100% sure that

enemy armor has been mostly destroyed

or you are out of LOS with them.

Second, operate them in pairs, so that

maximum flameage can be brought to

bear.

Third, learn to love the SdkFz 250/16

Flamethrower half-track. It is the finest

flame unit available for the Germans, with

speed, manuverability, and excellent visibilty.

Fourth, your preferred usage of flame units

should be in town/villages, to root out

enemy strongholds, such as heavily fortified

buildings, not to hunt down every single

man on the field.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Ryan Crierie ]

[PiggDogg]

Flame infantry is only good for killing units that are about to die anyway. Otherwise, the flame infantry dies. :cool:

Flame vehicles are a different matter. I have never purchased any and, in computer choose unit games, I have never be given any. Thus, I won't comment much about flame vehicles. Indeed, from Ryan's comments, it seems that most flame vehicles (except maybe a flame crocidile) should follow the flame infantry rule: Flame enemy units that are about to die anyway.

Cheers, Richard :cool:

[Ryan Crierie]

Actually, a pair of SdkFz 251/16 Halftracks

with flamethrowers is absolutely devastating.

They can wipe out an infantry unit quickly,

if employed properly. You can even torch

armored cars with the flame projectors.

Urban combat seems to be their forte, but

they can also be used efficiently in

rural settings. Try it one day...it's FUN!

50 blasts from the flamethrower on a

SdKfz 251/16 is fun!

[Ryan Crierie]

I have some rather nice saved games and

screenshots of the havoc a pair of flame

half-tracks can wreak.

The key is NOT to consider them invunerable

to all and rush blindly in for the thrill of

torching someone.

The key is to use them carefully, in

mass attacks, as a supporting weapon

to flush enemy units out of forests and

into the open, and break their morale,

making them easy pickings for your

infantry.

They are a mid-game weapon, to be used

when you have achieved a modicum of

vehicular superiority in the area, either

by destroying your enemy's tanks, or due

to terrain/buildings that will block

your opponent's tanks from firing on them.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Ryan Crierie ]

[Mud]

How about flaming a building that you're about to abandon anyway? For instance, enemy troops are about to overwhelm one of your forward buildings, so you order whoever's inside (if anybody) to withdraw and order a waiting FT to fire the building and then (pause, say, 30sec) to reverse/fast-move out away. If whoever was defending didn't withdraw in time, well, they were probably dead anyway...

I figure that if you have to give ground, you might as well give the enemy just the streets, and fewer buildings if at all possible.

[Redwolf]

Setting buildings on fire without enemy units being near is usully considered inappropriate tactics.

The problem with the 251/16 is that it is vulnerable to the .50cal MG, which can be found on many units in CMBO.

The Wasp is a very effective units, mostll because of its range and speed and ammo load. It is least vulnerable to German MGs and hard to hit with Schrecks. It is a so effective unit that it is banned from many ladder games.

[Silvio Manuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mud:

How about flaming a building that you're about to abandon anyway? For instance, enemy troops are about to overwhelm one of your forward buildings, so you order whoever's inside (if anybody) to withdraw and order a waiting FT to fire the building and then (pause, say, 30sec) to reverse/fast-move out away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use this tactic as well. Use inf.FT's to torch a house i'm either retreating from, or want to prevent the enemy from using- when I think they're about to charge into it.

[xerxes]

Flaming buildings to deny access is SOP from a historical perspective (certainly not gamey). Flaming VLs is to deny any access to a flag is abusing the game.

Infantry FTs on the attack have value but you need to use smoke to protect them and be very careful of letting them get exposed to enemy fire.

-marc

[Gen-x87H]

The Wasp is a very effective units, mostll because of its range and speed and ammo load. It is least vulnerable to German MGs and hard to hit with Schrecks. It is a so effective unit that it is banned from many ladder games. "

Wasps are easy pickings for German Flak guns

Anywho a tactic I am sure will be labeled gamey is if you are on defense. Light up all the tree lines that your enemy will be approaching from. This will force them in the open and in theory if used with barracades and mine field you could really force your enemy to some pretty nasty killing zones

**** I just thought this up on the spot. Im off to try it out

Gen

[Ryan Crierie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

Infantry FTs on the attack have value but you need to use smoke to protect them and be very careful of letting them get exposed to enemy fire.

-marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One: They're too slow to be of use. Only

of use in ambush situations, where you can

use their cheapness and hide ability to

lay down a devastating wall of flame from

all sides and annihilate anyone caught

in the ambush zone

[xerxes]

Quick recon with HTs and armored cars can put a crimp in the wasp flaming. You can only flame one tile at a time so it takes a while to flame a wall of trees. Then again, buying a truckload of wasps would work but you'd definitely earn a "gamey" label. heh.

The key to offensive FT employment is to target the terrain holding the enemy without being in LOS of the same enemy.

-marc

[Rodimzew]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anywho a tactic I am sure will be labeled gamey is if you

are on defense. Light up all the tree lines that your enemy

will be approaching from. This will force them in the open

and in theory if used with barracades and mine field you

could really force your enemy to some pretty nasty killing

zones

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO that isn't gamey. Real life isn't gamey too. It is just a strategy, which works well for the first time or until your opponent has developed a counter-strategy. I have used these wasps in "swarms" of four, covered by a crocodile and some bren-MGs (not tripod ). This arrangement is quite efficient to burn a village down or to do some terraforming and hold defenders heads down. Nevertheless these wasps were consumed rapidly by grenades and light flak. Even a well-aimed HMG burst puts them OOA, because if they are shocked they are useless.

If you flame a wood to early, the enemy knows about your tactic and will probably avoid the area. If you wait and he comes close to the wood, he might spot your minefields beside the woods, return an put artillery behind the wood. It's just a question of well timed actions. Good Luck, Gen.

Rodimzew

[Yowie]

Wasp is the best flame unit I think! Cheap and fast! If a little gamey...

They are very effective if they stay alive long enough. I would have one/two wasps attached to the infantry, call in the smoke mortars to blanket a fortified position I want to assult, then have the troops rush the position. Normally it's I can burn the any dug in units out easily.

This only works with the flame vhicles, flame throwers are too slow and the range is very limited.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Bad Dog ]

[Splash]

Flaming building and ground to deny access is a FT's most reliable trait. However I have stuck one way off and alone in deep woods in order to deny a flanking position. it's all you need (to feel secure) in that kind of set up. Either it delays or distracts -- at any rate if they really want the position they will have to commit to it.

An FT is also a good backup to a lone zook waiting in ambush.

[Gen-x87H]

Not so much wasps as much as flamethrowers.

I have found it take around 6 shots from a flamthrower to light up a tile. So if you grab maybe 20 of them you will be able to light up around 25 tiles or so.

How funny would that be if you light up all the trees and use barracades to keep them from going around the fires. Then all you get is a jeep or Kubelwagon and run around behind the fires and baracades that have mine fields near them. By them time your attacker figures it out you will win by default since his armor will have nowhere to go and only a few troops will have been able to get through.

It could be a good laugh at least

Gen

[Soddball]

I think the Wasp is a fabulous piece of machinery. I'd use it under every circumstance I can, particularly night and city games. I disagree with the assessment that it's "gamey" to torch a building you're evacuating. I would have said it was fair and if your opponent rushes into a building with their troops without checking it's safe, that's their bag - and they'll pay the price.

Wasps are best deployed at night for me, just to cook up patches of forest or buildings that the enemy might use.

[ElGuapo]

Flame vehicle tactics that have worked for me:

First, I agree they are a mid game weapon. You do not want to scout with WASPs or FT halftracks. They are also best used in villages/towns. They are best used under cover, not rushing through the open where they can be nailed by an AFV.

That being said, I think they are very, very effective against inf. The usual tactic I use is to get an arty/flame/inf combo going. It works like this:

1. Arty targets around a potential building that has lots of troops in it. Behind it is best, but it can be right on top of it too since the rounds will fall all aroudn the building.

2. Around 2-3 minutes out from the arty barrage, a squad or two of inf (or a MG), starts shooting at the occupants to suppress them. An AFV also work well, but your AFVs shoudl be doing their own thing and protecting your flanks.

3. Around 1:30 to 1:00 away from the arty, the FT vehicle moves up from position and starts to flame the building. It may take more than one round to do this so for heavy buildings give the arty extra time. As soon as the building goes up, withdraw the FT. If you did this right, it should not be taken out by MG fire or AT from troops, as the enemy is slightly suppressed.

4. When a building catches on fire, the troops inside jump out. About this time, if you timed it right, the arty nwo starts flying into your opponet's platoons in open ground, causing huge casualites.

5. If you decide they have been pounded enough or want to save your arty for later, cancel or move the arty request and use the FT to mop up any troops left over.

6. Repeat for any buildings giving you problems.

I have used this combo several times with devastating results.

[Dogface21]

I have had good (well, mostly) experiances with the Flammpanzer before. I had eliminated all enemy armour on the field, and had one remaining PzIV, immobile, almost out of ammo. Most Allied units had been bloodied, some severly. I decided, what the hell, and sent the flammpanzer into plug a hole in my defenses, where I suspected Allies were trying to sneak through. I had its flanks covered by a HMG on one side, pinning a .50, and a depleted Volksgrenadier platoon on the other. The flammPz has a 50m range, and horrible visibility, but it didnt matter much at this point. As it went into a small dip in the terrain between to clumps of woods, it uncovered a mass of allied infantry, huddled in a blind spot. The slaughter ensued. At the end of the game, the FlammPz had inflicted 23 casualties, and knocked out a mortar. A zook almost got him, but the Volks squad suppressed it long enough for the flame to do its thing. I was pleasantly surprised at its effectivness, but I agree with the statement that flame units are best used killing somthing thats on its way out anyways.

[michael]

In a recent QB vs AI, I sent a brit rifle squad "fast" into a small building only to discover a german flame unit was already in residence. (Why he didn't zap me en route will always be a mystery). The following turn, in reply to my squads' frantic house to house, the swine flamed me at a range of 5m. The result: oddly, no casualties; but we both broke and ran and the building was set on fire. Are flame units slow to attack targets of opportunity? Are they deliberately suicidal when cornered?

[Kirill S.]

I just did a test using 7 Flammpanzers.

I was targeting a Flammpanzer to Area Fire near another one. They exploded like crazy.

That's some good FF. After a crew abandoned the tank, the fire kept coming and th germans fried one of their own, shouldn't they see where they are firing??

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by michael:

In a recent QB vs AI, I sent a brit rifle squad "fast" into a small building only to discover a german flame unit was already in residence. (Why he didn't zap me en route will always be a mystery). The following turn, in reply to my squads' frantic house to house, the swine flamed me at a range of 5m. The result: oddly, no casualties; but we both broke and ran and the building was set on fire. Are flame units slow to attack targets of opportunity? Are they deliberately suicidal when cornered?<hr></blockquote>

I imagine that their ability to ambush is dependant on Exp. Level and if they are in Command and Control.

I've had AI FT units in the same situation flame the house i just entered from the next house down...brutal.

[Caesar]

I love the wasp and will use it at every opportunity. The one thing to remember with it is to button it when attacking. Lose a crew member and it will no longer fire. I have wiped out entire towns with a wasp, routed infantry, killed armour etc. As long as it is modelled correctly and not purchased in inapproprate numbers, how can it be called a gamey unit.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Caesar:

I love the wasp and will use it at every opportunity. [...] As long as it is modelled correctly and not purchased in inapproprate numbers, how can it be called a gamey unit.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly my thoughts, the British way of fighting heavily relied on flamethrowers, the game would be a historical joke for British players without flame units.

What I was opposed to is to send a bunch of Wasps to a flag and then make a ring of burning terrain around them or similar tricks.

[Caesar]

Has anyone got any idea how many wasps the UK made. Were they common. I note that the computer chooses them almost every time (though I have yet to see the TacAI make particularly good use of them.)