Pillbox now you see me now you don't.

[Andymann]

I hope this is getting fixed on the new CM2. How can guns and even pillboxes re-hide themselves ? You've seen them once so you know where they are..!

More than once I have sent a tank around a wood and had it ignore a clump of trees where I knew an AT gun was until...........

[Silvio Manuel]

Just good camoflauge maybe?

Its nice to see a lack of borg-spotting. Strange...does what you saw mean that the enemy put the pillbox on hide? Were you playing a person or the AI?

[Moon]

A pillbox (or any unit in fact) will leave a generic unit marker at the last known position when you lose sight to it. This can happen, for example, when you saw muzzle flash, but it's just far enough that you can't locate the exact position when the Pillbox stopped firing.

Martin

[lcm1947]

Oh good answer Moon. That makes sense. You guys are good.

[Andymann]

I think a few of you have missunderstood me....

The pillbox has been seen and it's position is clearly identified-My pc opponent chooses to "hide" it next turn and it dissapears bar an obscure marker that I can't target and my units cannot be called upon to fire near at all :eek: if they have to move to get a line of sight first---it's no dice !

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Andymann:

I think a few of you have missunderstood me....

The pillbox has been seen and it's position is clearly identified-My pc opponent chooses to "hide" it next turn and it dissapears bar an obscure marker that I can't target and my units cannot be called upon to fire near at all :eek: if they have to move to get a line of sight first---it's no dice !

It sounds to me that the problem isn't your opponent hiding the pillbox. I think your own troops have lost any line of sight to the pillbox, which is what happens when the "obscure marker" appears. The reason your units can't target the pillbox is because they can't see it!

When you know where a pillbox or anti-tank gun is located, you want to approach it VERY carefully. If you go sending a tank around the known position of a gun, you're paying the price for impatience. The relatively small, quiet, and hidden gun will spot the big, loud, and moving tank first almost every time. When you know the position of a gun, get some mortar or artillery fire on it. For that you need infantry.

[Andymann]

I know what you mean about losing sight of the pillbox, but a pillbox doesn't move ! You don't get a question mark happening with a house !(I know there's a slight flaw in this comparison but you get the picture ).......As for the dissapearing gun it was that "tanks must get through" game and I was almost out of infantry,time and options for flanking.....I guess my commander must be the same one who was in Band of Brothers eh?

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Andymann:

I know what you mean about losing sight of the pillbox, but a pillbox doesn't move ! You don't get a question mark happening with a house !(I know there's a slight flaw in this comparison but you get the picture ).......As for the dissapearing gun it was that "tanks must get through" game and I was almost out of infantry,time and options for flanking.....I guess my commander must be the same one who was in Band of Brothers eh?

The houses aren't enemy units, so they don't get replaced with markers. The pillbox doesn't move, but your soldiers do. If you don't currently have a LIVE unit with line of sight to the previously spotted pillbox, bunker, gun, tank, infantry, or whatever, it gets replaced by the marker.

Believe me, you're not alone in losing a unit to a previously identified enemy that was replaced with a marker. My last similar experience was after immobilizing a Firefly in some scattered trees. Later I forgot it was there and moved a Jagdpanther within sighting range. No more Jagdpanther.

[Doug Beman]

To echo what others have said, if you have no unit with proper LOS to any enemy unit, you will be unable to see that enemy unit even if, as is the case with a pillbox, you KNOW it is there.

The reason that you lost sight in the first place is that, while the gun/pillbox is firing, your units see the unit because of the commotion it makes while firing. Once the thing stops shooting, your units might not be able to see enough to target the pillbox itself.

This happens a lot in battles that take place at night and/or in foul weather.

DjB

[Andymann]

To echo what others have said, if you have no unit with proper LOS to any enemy unit, you will be unable to see that enemy unit even if, as is the case with a pillbox, you KNOW it is there.

Good point, so if I know it's there how come my tank doesn't ? Furthermore a pillbox is the size of a small bungalow, and just as mobile if I knew where it was well enough to fire upon once then.......... :confused:

[Tero]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Oh good answer Moon. That makes sense. You guys are good.

So how come I have spotted bunkers as "sound contact" in situations they have not fired or have not been spotted otherwise.

And the aural spotting has been VERY accurate as to the whereabouts of said bunker.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Andymann:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> To echo what others have said, if you have no unit with proper LOS to any enemy unit, you will be unable to see that enemy unit even if, as is the case with a pillbox, you KNOW it is there.

Good point, so if I know it's there how come my tank doesn't ? Furthermore a pillbox is the size of a small bungalow, and just as mobile if I knew where it was well enough to fire upon once then.......... :confused: </font>

[Andymann]

I know what you're saying but the pc shouldn't have the option of re-hiding it.......OK, so I'm in charge, I tell a group of tanks to hunt up a hill and take out a pillbox that is within 20 feet of where I last spotted it. (It can't move )In real life are they just going to crest the hill and sit around atop it waiting for the pillbox to fire first ?

"Out of sight, out of mind" is the operative phrase.

Not for mines it's not ! They certainly don't know where they are for sure . A pillbox out of sight out of mind ! You're a braver man than I ! :eek:

[CMplayer]

You've identified a host of weaknesses in the game engine. It's still a cool game though.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Andymann:

I know what you're saying but the pc shouldn't have the option of re-hiding it.......OK, so I'm in charge, I tell a group of tanks to hunt up a hill and take out a pillbox that is within 20 feet of where I last spotted it. (It can't move )In real life are they just going to crest the hill and sit around atop it waiting for the pillbox to fire first ?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "Out of sight, out of mind" is the operative phrase.

Not for mines it's not ! They certainly don't know where they are for sure . A pillbox out of sight out of mind ! You're a braver man than I ! :eek: </font>

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andymann:

I know what you're saying but the pc shouldn't have the option of re-hiding it.......OK, so I'm in charge, I tell a group of tanks to hunt up a hill and take out a pillbox that is within 20 feet of where I last spotted it. (It can't move )In real life are they just going to crest the hill and sit around atop it waiting for the pillbox to fire first ?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "Out of sight, out of mind" is the operative phrase.

Not for mines it's not ! They certainly don't know where they are for sure . A pillbox out of sight out of mind ! You're a braver man than I ! :eek: </font>

[aka_tom_w]

I'm wondering if Andy would like to read up a little on the differences between Absolute and Relative Spotting?

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=

this was the lastest "Relative Spotting Revisited Thread"

Steve posted a few interesting commments.....

Steve's posts appear on page 7:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=7

-tom w

[ July 03, 2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I believe this aspect of the game is called Fog Of War (FOW)

If Andy wants to see that pillbox why doesn't he just play with Fog of War Off and or Partial Fog of War????

I have never played with Partial FOW so I'm not sure what it does.

This is clearly a FOW issue and in CMBO FOW works better than in ANY other game I have ever played!

It makes sense to me that if you have no friendly units with LOS to an opposing unit (A pillbox IS an opposing unit) IT SHOULD disappear because you have no friendly units looking at it.

I have only heard rumours of CMBB's Extreme FOW setting but you are frustrated with FOW in CMBO I suggest you give Extreme FOW in CMBB a pass!

-tom w

FOW only affects what players can and can't see, not what individual units can and can't see. I think Andy's issue is that his UNITS are unable to fire on a pillbox they've briefly seen but now--just barely--cannot see. I think maybe he's wanting to be able to TARGET that pillbox's "generic marker" with direct-fire guns?

DjB

[Andreas]

Doug, I think that is what he means. Which begs the question - how are you going to fire with a DF weapon on something the operator of that weapon can not see? Why is the game 'broken' if it does not allow you to shoot at something you don't see with a DF weapon?

Answers on a postcard.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Doug, I think that is what he means. Which begs the question - how are you going to fire with a DF weapon on something the operator of that weapon can not see? Why is the game 'broken' if it does not allow you to shoot at something you don't see with a DF weapon?

Answers on a postcard.

You can shoot at something you don't see with a DF weapon. It's called area fire. Andyman 'lost contact' to the pillbox, meaning that he no longer has a unit that can actually see the pillbox itself. That doesn't mean that he doesn't know where it is - that's what the contact marker is for. Since pillboxes don't move, he knows it's still there. He can order a tank (or any weapon, for that matter) to fire at the area where the pillbox is. To my imagination, this would simulate the following sequence:

"Sargeant, did you see that muzzle flash in the trees at your 3 o'clock?"

"Yes, Sir, it looked like a pillbox, but I can't make it out anymore now that it's stopped firing."

"Well, fire some HE into that area to keep their heads down while the infantry tries to flank it."

The above sequence assumes that the tank has LOS to the area where the pillbox is, but is out of the pillbox's firing arc. Otherwise the tank would likely be dead or moving into defilade very quickly. The tank can't target the pillbox directly because it can't see it, but it can send shots into that general area.

What CM doesn't let you do is issue an area fire order at a point which the firing unit does not have LOS to. I'm not sure if this is unrealistic, though. Here's what I imagine this would be like IRL:

"OK, sargeant, drive your tank up over the ridge in front of you. We spotted ATG fire coming from a pillbox on a small rise in front of your position. When you crest the rise, you'll see a rise tree-covered hill about 500m in front of you. About 40m north of the crest of the rise is where we think that pillbox is. As soon as you crest the rise, start laying HE into this area to keep their heads down so we can try to flank the pillbox."

How accurate do you think the fire from these orders is going to be? My guess is not very. The tank crew might be a bit off in thier targeting, and it will also probably take them longer to figure out exactly where the target point it. Now, there are real world tactics that would help make this kind of thing easier to implement, (chiefly, the use of a mortar smoke shell, or even a smoke rifle grenade as a 'marker'), but it's still a much more complicated series of tasks that will take require more time and effort to execute than an area fire order at a target the tank can see. In CM, you have to have your tank crest the rise to gain LOS to the pillbox location, and then you can issue the area fire order. I think this is probably a reasonable approximation of this additional time and effort.

Of course, if you have that tank crest the rise in the pillbox's firing arc, it's probably going to get nailed before it gets too many of those area fire shots off - there are better ways of dealing with pillboxes.

The other quirk of CM is that you can issue a target order to a unit that isn't currently in LOS of a given enemy unit, but you can't do this if for a lost contact marker, even if the unit has LOS to the marker. Issuing a target order to a unit that can't see it's target seems to make the unit open fire more quickly on the target in question when and if the target moves into it's LOS.

IMHO, you should be able to issue target orders to 'lost contact' markers, especially for stationary units like AT Guns and Pillboxes. This would basically simulate telling a tank crew, "We just spotted gun fire coming from a ridge about 500m due north of your position. It looks like an enemy pillbox, but it stopped firing and we can't make out it's exact position anymore. When you crest the ridge, be on the lookout for it." This would make the unit more likely to focus it's attention on the general area where the pillbox was spotted, meaning that the tank might spot the pillbox sooner and get off a shot or two before it gets capped.

The cover arc command in CMBB should basically give you this ability - just issue a 'cover arc' command so the tank turret (and presumably the majority of the tanks spotting attention) will be focused towards the pillbox location when it crests the rise. That's just a guess, though. Alas, I am no CMBB Beta tester.

[Andymann]

I think everybody get's my point now, whether they agree or not. My main gripe is not with units dissapearing but with large immobile units dissapearing and not after the odd potshot after putting 3 squads and a few mgs under fire for a few minutes.

As for tank support my tank could only get into as good a hull down position as I can guess even if the pillbox is hidden in a clump of trees no bigger than it is. Mines came in to it in so much as once your troops spot or trigger a mine, wallop, up pops a sign and the position of the minefield to whatever a Sq yardage a minefields size is is known, is that more realistic ?

P.S. If anyone has any stories of pillboxes being lost sight of after taking and receiving fire for several minutes I'd love to hear them.

Interesting chat though.