Kingfish Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 ********SPOILER************ * * * * * * * * Warning! This thread has spoiler info for the ROW scenarios. Do not read beyond this post if you want to preserve FOW for future matches. Welcome ROW Participants! The purpose of this thread is to allow you to discuss the 7 ROW scenarios in detail, and to preserve FOW for future players. Feel free to sound off. You've wanted to for many months, now's your chance. Got a unit that went above and beyond? Tell us about it. Want to praise (or curse) Wild Bill? This is the place. Think you have a suggestion that will improve gameplay? Let's discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 Well all right, King! I'll be reading all of the posts here with avid attention. I consider you guys who particpated in this bloody fight as veterans with the well earned right to speak. Be gentle. I'm very sensitive Just kidding! Speak your mind. I may not agree with you ideas, but I do agree that you should give me your thoughts on the experience. The winners are pleased. The losers are disgruntled. I have been in both corners. I know the feeling! Thanks to all of you for being involved...and those great reading AARs! Wild Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 Anybody have a problem with the setup as the Allies in "High Cost of Real Estate"? What's up with that Churchill sitting off by himself in LOS of that 75mm AT bunker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 Wade, I'd love to talk about that scenario (and yes, your guess in the other thread was correct) but WineCape has admonished us (also in the other thread) not to say anything until everyone is done playing each scenario. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 OK, I should probably spend my "free time" writing my AARs. However, I am sure everyone has gotten past that point in the scenario so it shouldn't ruin it for anyone. BTW, I got the Church flame mixed up with the Croc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 We haven't talked about Duel at Dompaire yet... How did people use the terrain in this scenario? Did anyone use the sunken road on the German right for a high-speed flanking attack? Did people use the hills, or stay down on the flat? Did the French make it into town? Did any armor survive until the end? In my game, the French stayed off the hills and on the flat, and ignored the sunken road on the far right (all references from German perspective) which I guarded with the Pak38 and a HMG, instead choosing to concentrate their attack in the area on both sides of the center sunken road. The French got hung up in the woods at the edge of the town proper, but did manage to get a tank or two on the hill to the left of the town. An infantry altercation took place in the scattered trees on the far left, and the field on the left became a panzer graveyard for both sides. A major firefight took place along the center sunken road, again with multiple dead AFVs from both sides littering the landscape. When the game ended, I was down to two Panthers and four halftracks, while the French were down to two Shermans and one halftrack. Those last two Panthers did all the heavy lifting in the scenario, and I've recommended both of the crews for decoration. In the first half, my kitties couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and I lost five of them in exchange for only one Sherman and a Greyhound. Things started to improve in the middle game, when I lost another two in exchange for 3 or 4 French tanks, then things really shifted into high gear around turn 19 or 20 when those two remaining Panthers racked up some large number (6? 8?) of kills while themselves remaining in good order. If anyone wants the AAR and/or ending map file, post here or send me an e-mail and I'll send it to you on my lunch break. [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: redeker ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redeker: We haven't talked about Duel at Dompaire yet... <hr></blockquote> I played the German side on that one and I used the sunken road on the (German)right. At first I just sent a few vehicles over to cover that approach. But then I sent a couple panthers up the road when I didn't see anything coming down the road. I had 2 armored cars and a Panther run into the French Armored infantry reinforcment that showed up on that side. My litle task force completely shot them up. The French stuck mostly to the low areas and used the cover pretty effectively. They never made it into town as I had infantry in front of the town plus panthers sitting on the main road. By the end of the scenerio there were still a number of tanks running on each side. I think I still had 4 or so Panthers and I think the french still had 4 or 5 tanks (not much else though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I would like that AAR Redeker and I will send you mine. That game was one of the most daring I played and I had a magic shoot out where I took most of the German armour in one turn. The secret for the French is to get in close and side shoots. I did a co-ordinated attack down the left flank (German right) and used the ridge line to hide behind. I then laid smoke and got in close. At the same time as I did this I manuevered into position on my right to take shots at the Panthers engaging this move. It was a horrific loss for the Germans in one go and from then on it was a downward slide for the Germans. I managed to encircle the Town and the German player was forced to pull out. The AAR will explain better, but the secret is to use the terrain to get in close and then smoke and use speed to get in side shots on the slow moving Panthers. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 (Note following original post: As I was writing my comment Holien posted his above. I'm going to leave my comment unchanged below, but I'm wondering if my approach would have worked successfully against the tactics Holien devised. Obviously, his approach was attempting to achieve what my approach was attempting to deny. Who can say who would have triumphed?) I had the Germans in Dompaire and have trouble seeing how the Allies can work out a tactic that would be effective against such a strong concentration of Panthers--though obviously some Allied commanders managed to win it. I approached the whole scenario as a defensive operation leading, I hoped, to a successful counterattack. As I accumulated Panthers, I moved all but two of them by covered routes into the town, leaving a Panther and a Puma on the right and another Panther to cover the open space in the middle. My AT gun went into hiding on a rise in that middle ground space, too, supported by an HMG. All the infantry went to the town. This worked very well because my opponent tried to move his armor (about 7-8 Shermans and TDs) down and along the sunken road into Dompaire, with a few TDs supporting from a distance on my right flank. Infantry in the upper floors of buildings in the town, plus my 50mm gun placed in the center, gave me a very good overview of the battlefield. When enough Allied tanks were in view, I had six Panthers roll out of cover either into the main drag or out of the trees on the right flank. They killed about six tanks in one turn, for the loss of on Panther immoblized and one killed Puma. My Panther on the right and the ranging Panther in the middle controlled an attack on that flank, killing a couple of tanks and shooting up HTs. I was rather severely hammered by the Allied planes, but still ended up killing all but one Allied tank. Lost four Panthers (two to air attack), and the planes shot up almost all of my HTs, but I still had five Panthers left (one gun-damaged by air attack) at the end of the scenario. Ultimately my counterattack--which didn't really begin until the Allied armor was virtually gone and I'd had a chance to work over their infantry--rolled over the central Allied VL and just ran out of time in racing toward the VL on my left flank, which ended in dispute. I approached the scenario with the view that I would never give the Allies a flank shot on one of my Panthers. They never did get one because I was able to keep my tanks bristled out like a hedgehog and they of course had a hard time killing my Panthers from the front, though one veteran M10 managed to kill two. Sherm 75s are vitually helpless against Panthers if they can't get a flank shot. I'm curious to know if any Allied commanders confronted a similar Axis strategy of defense followed by counterattack, and if so, if you found an effective way to counter it? [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I, too, had the Germans. Looking at the map, most of the VLs are clustered in the centre or to the left, so I sent my meagre initial heavy forces to the left, and the recon elements to the right. My opponent stayed under cover for the first few turns (as did I), so things got off to a slow start. However, I started to get indications that he was moving to the right flank. I sent my recce cars forward to about the lateral road, and started drifting some Panthers across. It turns out that this was his main effort - the recce elements got badly shot up, while inflicting few casualties. However, they did give me a warning, and just enough time, to move the bulk of my Panthers across via the covered route behind the ridge to shoot them up as they raced down the right flank. He also tried to thrust across the centre of the map, but fell prey to 4 Panthers I moved up onto the ridge. Things went very well for me in the tank-on-tank stuff, and I amanged to keep most of my cats alive until late in the game. I ended up losing quite a few of them when I went out hunting, getting in too close in the woods, offering flank shots, etc. His planes carved up my halftracks something terrible, but none of the VLs were ever really contested, and his armour and infantry ended the game in tatters. Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 The Dompaire game was one of the hardest challenges for the Allied player and I would guess easier for the Germans to win if they managed to hang back and get good LOS. People seem to have had opponents who (French) attacked down the Sunken road into the Town. This IMO was and is sucidal if no smoke is used. Once in town then the Shermans have a good turn of speed and can usually best the Panthers if the German Infantry can be avoided. I did not want to get into town by this route until I had a good idea where the infantry and all the Panthers were. The Left flank for the Allies offered the best approach as there are some good undulations in the terrain which allow quick moves in and out of sight. This combined with smoke allowed me to get close to the German right flank forces. The final push involved my infantry going over the top and distracting the tanks, just as a big 105mm Smoke barrage fell. This was followed a minute later by the A/c's and Shermans driving like crazy down the left (French side) semi sunken road. At the same time I had two M10's pop up in the middle and caught the German Panthers in a cross fire as they turned side on to engage the Shermans. I alos used a troop of Shermans on the French right flank to engage the Panthers in range that had turned to deal with the Left flank charge. It took a long time to get all the units in place but the turn that it all kicked off was magical. In two minutes of intense action four Panthers, 3 A/c's and the AT Gun had been knocked out for none in return. The infantry had buttoned the German commanders and the smoke played havoc with targeting. The slow turret speed and fast moving Shermans and their quick turrets were the undoing of the Germans. This broke German morale and after that I was easily able to flank the Town and put the squeeze on the Two remaining Panthers. If you do not use your force as a whole in a combined way (as the Allies) you will be hard pressed to defeat these cats. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Redeker I sent a quick reply from home this morning before heading into work. I hope the size does not trash your mailbox. It would be interesting to hear Peters or Warrens experience with Duel. They did very well as the Allied attacker and it would be nice to see which approach they took. Redeker as for our future competition I am the least of your worries. There is one man to beat in this competition and we will be both hard pressed to best him. Just another side note on Duel. Part of the German downfall in my game was he realised that by taking the two flags it would be a draw and played a defensive game in the hope of doing more damage to me. Well that is my read on what was happening. I realised that I could not win in this situation and made a determined effort to create a winning situation and while it was a gamble it was worth taking. Mind you I might have said differently if I had been creamed in that gamble. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 I can tell you Warren's approach, he played a crappy German player, the gamey bastard! But seriously, my "ambush" position was severely hammered by his planes and when I moved he nailed me with long range fire from the hills. I don't think I got more than 1 or 2 of his tanks in return, it was pretty easy for him really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wadepm: I can tell you Warren's approach, he played a crappy German player, the gamey bastard! But seriously, my "ambush" position was severely hammered by his planes and when I moved he nailed me with long range fire from the hills. I don't think I got more than 1 or 2 of his tanks in return, it was pretty easy for him really.<hr></blockquote> Those planes can be a right royal pain in the rear and Tom was not happy with what mine did to him. Mind you none of my planes capped any of the Panthers, but those 1/2 tracks were chewed badly. As for long range shots on Panthers, did he get side hits on you or use the Tungsten to burn through the front? In what way did you move those Panthers? H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Ah c'mon Wade don't short change yourself. I think you had a solid tactic. It is most logical for the Allied player to advance up the main road and a push on the sunken road along the flank makes sense. My aircraft did get 2 Panthers I think which definitely helped. My Plan was pretty simple too, I pushed Greyhounds left and infantry right. The wooded areas on the Allied right flanks make for very good approaches. My greyhounds got taken out by Wade's Puma rush but he got too bold and kept going, the result is when I deploy a Tank Platoon to cover that flank, he ran right into them. In one turn 3 Pumas were KO'd in about 30 secs, the fourth the next turn. So I kept pushing my infantry right and held my armour on the high ground left. The Allies have a serious infantry advantage in the scenario and it can turn the battle. I pushed my infantry up past the second flag into the stretch of the main road with woods on either side and then sent a couple Panther to support. My M-10s then took out three Panthers when they tried to shift to take my infantry. I guess I just stuck to basics and kept my armour well back and let my infantry do most of the work. If I had ignored the Left and charged into town I think Wade's plan would have been quite successful. I think the German plan to treat as a defence is also pretty smart. As it forces inferior Allied armour to attack without sufficient force ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Thanks Warren. Yea, my master would have worked if 1) you didn't have any air cover and 2) you did exactly as I expected. But seriously (again?) I think the German player has to play this as a defensive battle because of his general lack of infantry to support the tanks. On a related thought...what do you guys think of planes in general in a tourney setting? I think they add way too much randomness to the result, not that there isn't a lot of that already. For instance, I got hit four times by planes in this scenario, how many times did you other guys get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I am always dubious about planes in a tourney game as it is pure act of god if they have an effect. The problem is in design, if you allow extra resources to the Germans to balance the game and the planes fail to do anything then the game is un-balanced towards the Germans. If they do have an effect then it might be more than the designer wanted and un balance it towards the Allies. Now of course I know that we are using Nabla's scoring system and there are enough games to average out these sort of skews. But if it was just down to a single game and it had planes I would be worried. So in this tourney I think there is enough to balance it out and is not really a problem. Looking at it in this Scenario does anyone think the planes made all the difference? I don't think they made much of a difference in my game, but I am willing to be corrected. Tom? H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Originally posted by Holien: Looking at it in this Scenario does anyone think the planes made all the difference? I don't think they made much of a difference in my game, but I am willing to be corrected. Tom? HThe residents of Assenois are right pissed about the huge crater your plane left in the middle of the road, but are thankful it didn't hit anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Gents, I am currently replaying two of the ROW scenarios, both from the opposite side, and have encountered something that doesn’t seem right to me. Rather than e-mail Wild Bill directly I thought it best to first ask for your opinions, as I feel that any request for changes should be a group effort. The two scenarios are ‘Real guts’ and one other still in progress at the tourney. In both the allied reinforcements appear literally in the crosshairs of the German PBs. The result is a turkey shoot for the German player, allowing him to bag valuable units at no cost. In addition, the entry of these reinforcements into battle is now delayed, as the allied player is forced to scramble the survivors into cover, and reorganize shattered units. On the flip side, the German reinforcements arrive in good order, safely behind terrain features and out of LOS to the allied player. These PBs are detected very early in the game, so it can be assumed that the allied commander, aware that his reinforcements will arrive soon, will have plenty of time to warn of the threat and detour the column to a safer arrival point. So, what I think is needed is a sheltered arrival point for the allied reinforcements. He can then coordinate their entry into the battle, rather than the ‘every man for himself’ rush to cover. I’d like to hear your opinions and suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Originally posted by Kingfish: H[/qb]The residents of Assenois are right pissed about the huge crater your plane left in the middle of the road, but are thankful it didn't hit anything else [/QB]Hmm all I can say in response is that you were lucky it did not hit X as it should have done considering X was on a long straight road. I could have done with them being more effective in that game. If memory serves me right they did *OD all. As or the residents well being a Brit we don't care too much about our French neighbours, apart from their wine and smelly cheeses. H [ January 30, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Holien ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Originally posted by Kingfish: The two scenarios are ‘Real guts’ and one other still in progress at the tourney. In both the allied reinforcements appear literally in the crosshairs of the German PBs. The result is a turkey shoot for the German player, allowing him to bag valuable units at no cost. In addition, the entry of these reinforcements into battle is now delayed, as the allied player is forced to scramble the survivors into cover, and reorganize shattered units. On the flip side, the German reinforcements arrive in good order, safely behind terrain features and out of LOS to the allied player. These PBs are detected very early in the game, so it can be assumed that the allied commander, aware that his reinforcements will arrive soon, will have plenty of time to warn of the threat and detour the column to a safer arrival point. So, what I think is needed is a sheltered arrival point for the allied reinforcements. He can then coordinate their entry into the battle, rather than the ‘every man for himself’ rush to cover. I’d like to hear your opinions and suggestions.I'm getting the impression that I had an atypical playing of both of the scenarios in question, partly due to luck, partly due to my actions, and partly due (at least in Real Guts) to the defender's setup. I am all for screening reinforcement group arrival points, but the technique can also be used by a scenario designer to either light a fire under the attacker and/or reward proper use of smoke. I don't know what others think, but when I'm given an 81mm observer among my initial forces in an attack or assault scenario, I assume that he is there for his smoke capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Hi KF, Not sure what you mean about Real Guts? As the German Defender I might have missed a trick in the positioning of my defences. As for using smoke, well I think people tend to not use it. That would have helped you? Would you send me your AAR on that game, and explain further about that game and what happened so we can understand you point of view. I would waffle some more but I will wait until I understand what happened in that game. H P.S. Have you been taking coaching lessons from JK? P.P.S That last comment should be viewed as a Brit piss take and not seriously by any Yanks. P.P.P.S Sorry I am going for the racial wind up route today and feel I must apologise for my race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I just realized that the unknown scenario you're talking about has pillboxes, while mentally I read it as "AT guns" because of what I believe some others have said about another scenario. If we're talking about the only other scenario with AT pillboxes, I would have to agree that it is the one that ranks highest on the weird-o-meter. I haven't yet written my AAR on that one, but I lost a significant unit on turn one to an AT PB. The rest of my game strategy was largely dictated by the placement of those pillboxes, and I only gained freedom of maneuver late in the game when the PB which took out my significant unit on turn 1 finally succumbed to a terrain fire caused by all the HE which had been thrown at him from just outside his covered arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted January 30, 2002 Author Share Posted January 30, 2002 Holien, I too was the German defender in Real guts, so my AAR will not give you the allied perspective. You have to play it as the allies, as I'm doing now, to understand what I'm talking about. However, if you still want it just e-mail me and I'll reply later on tonight. redeker, I agree that smoke will help out a great deal, but is the spotter there to screen the reinforcements or the initial assault force? He can't do both, nor can he smoke both PBs at the same time. Besides, when do you drop smoke? Someone playing Real Guts for the first time has no idea when or where his reinforcements arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Yep send me the AAR and I will see how you did. I can see that for some players it might have hurt but in the balance did it for all the games? I remember that second game of Ranville, you used the knowledge well of where the Germans would pop up. I failed to use smoke to secure that route, mind you not sure that I had any at that stage? H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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