BTS, Ambush markers vs. AFVs = one shot wonders Why?

[John Kettler]

I've been meaning to ask this for some time now, but keep getting distracted by all the other juicy issues.

What I'd like to know is why, if an ambush marker represents a carefully sighted in, known distance point (sometimes even walked), why is it that the marker goes away after the initial shot, especially since ambushes were often keyed to specific terrain features, a rock, bush, etc.? Shouldn't the gun or AFV doing the ambushing be able to rapidly and accurately engage targets on and close to the ambush marker even after the first shot goes downrange? I've repeatedly observed my gun or AFV becomes stupid after the first shot, even with target after target passing through the original location of the marker. Most annoying!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Olle Petersson]

I agree wholeheartedly with your annoyance and complaints.

However, the simple answer to your question is that it was too difficult (or CPU demanding) to implement in the game engine.

If I'm not totally misstaken there's supposed to be some advantage in using direct fired guns in combination with TRPs though.

Pillbox guns also have better overall hit probability.

Cheers

Olle

[Tero]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

I've been meaning to ask this for some time now, but keep getting distracted by all the other juicy issues.

What I'd like to know is why, if an ambush marker represents a carefully sighted in, known distance point (sometimes even walked), why is it that the marker goes away after the initial shot, especially since ambushes were often keyed to specific terrain features, a rock, bush, etc.? Shouldn't the gun or AFV doing the ambushing be able to rapidly and accurately engage targets on and close to the ambush marker even after the first shot goes downrange? I've repeatedly observed my gun or AFV becomes stupid after the first shot, even with target after target passing through the original location of the marker. Most annoying!

Regards,

John Kettler

Could it be that the Ambush marker is considered to be an area fire target and when a real point target gets picked up in the zone the gun reverts to the normal programming concerning DF gunnery ?

[Kwazydog]

John, I think you should be using a TRP point for what you are trying to do, not an ambush marker. An ambush marker simply allows you to tell your troops to hold fire until the enemy reached a certain point, whereas a TRP marker will give you a bonus when shooting within its area.

Dan

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

I agree wholeheartedly with your annoyance and complaints.

However, the simple answer to your question is that it was too difficult (or CPU demanding) to implement in the game engine.

If I'm not totally misstaken there's supposed to be some advantage in using direct fired guns in combination with TRPs though.

Pillbox guns also have better overall hit probability.

Cheers

Olle

Olle is correct (from the read-me)

"* Pillboxes:

- Acquire targets a bit faster than other guns (it's assumed that they've pre-ranged to landmarks)."

The TRP will do what you ask for, BUT the ambush marker "should" do it TOO.

if a stationary pillbox aquires targets faster because it is pre-ranged, it does not seem unreasonable that a stationary tank that sets an ambush marker (maybe JUST in the set-up phase) should be granted some form of targeting bonus based on walking to the ambush area and pre-ranging the distance. To do this in the middle of combat however does perhaps seem unreasonable.

-tom w

[Andreas]

Tom, it would also be nice to get a crack crew for free in a tank, and maybe not even unreasonable. Alternatively, you can do what you do with all features in CMBX, and pay for them. Buy a TRP, they are not that expensive.

[lcm1947]

What am I doing wrong? I have on many occasions set up an ambush marker just to have a tank or vehcile drive right over it without the tank that had the marker even fire. Is that common? Am I doing something wrong? I mean it seems rather simple but doesn't seem to be reliable. Any remarks?

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

... set up an ambush marker just to have a tank or vehcile drive right over it without the tank that had the marker even fire.

a) Is that common?

Am I doing something wrong?

a) No, it's quite unusual.

Probably not.

It's most probably a spotting issue.

You use an AFV for the ambush. They don't have terrific spotting abilities and may fail to spot an enemy unit moving past, especially if it's foggy and/or night. It gets even worse if they're buttoned as well.

Another similar thing that's happened to me is that the ambushing unit spotted the enemy but wasn't able to aim accurately until the enemy was out of sight again.

Cheers

Olle

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

What am I doing wrong? I have on many occasions set up an ambush marker just to have a tank or vehcile drive right over it without the tank that had the marker even fire. Is that common? Am I doing something wrong? I mean it seems rather simple but doesn't seem to be reliable. Any remarks?

not only do you need the ambush marker setup, do you not, also have to target that ambush marker with the units you want to fire at it when the enemy units approach?

-tom w

[CombinedArms]

In general I think the "ambush" feature in CMBO is a bust, and I have reached the point where I virtually never use it (and when I do--once in every fifty games--I generally regret it.)

So, I'm avoiding "ambush" from now on in CMBO and waiting for CMBB's reportedly much improved implementation.

[Wreck]

the "ambush" feature in CMBO is a bust, and I have reached the point where I virtually never use it

You mean for tanks? There are limited uses, but agreed ambushing with tanks is generally a bad idea. There are limited uses, however. I used a tank ambush in a recent game in the ROW finals, and it worked. (Though, very likely I would have gotten the same kill without placing the ambush marker.)

With units which can hide effectively, ambush is an incredibly useful tool for fire discipline and sighting.

[CombinedArms]

Wreck, I would definitely tend to trust your opinion on this, since you are an amazing player. But here goes...my experience is that for tanks the ambush feature is very risky--the enemy tank might bypass the ambush point and kill your tank which is locked in and won't fire in self defense.

With AT guns I tend to just hide 'em and wait to unhide on the next move when a target comes in sight. That way, I can choose my target rather than shoot at something too big or too small.

For hidden zooks/piats/shrecks I tend to rely on the TacAI to find and react to targets. That has generally worked pretty well for me but maybe ambush would work if you wanted to force a zook not to fire?

Similarly, for hidden infantry, I tend to rely on the TacAI to select targets. Maybe ambush would work here, also, to prevent a unit from firing before you wanted it too?

Anyway, I'd be curious to hear from Wreck or others about successful ways to use the ambush feature.

[ May 02, 2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Wreck:

It sure is. I've been using it more and have pulled off 3 nasty ambushes in my last newbie tournament game, and another in a side game. Even good quality inf's in command will open up "too soon," somewhere closer than 100m...but you need to ambush command if you really want mayhem...the type where whole squads get wiped out and the enemy only gets "infantry sounds?" as a contact.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

It sure is. I've been using it more and have pulled off 3 nasty ambushes in my last newbie tournament game, and another in a side game. Even good quality inf's in command will open up "too soon," somewhere closer than 100m...but you need to ambush command if you really want mayhem...the type where whole squads get wiped out and the enemy only gets "infantry sounds?" as a contact.

OK. OK.... NOW I get it! It's an infantry "don't fire till you see the white's of their eyes" tool! Then you let go with everything at very close range.

Do you set the marker where you want the enemy to trip it, or do you set it somewhere else so they won't shoot at all till you give the order? Maybe the latter, or else you'll end up murdering some half=squad and giving your position away? Will the ambusher's fire if the enemy REALLY gets close but doesn't trip the marker?