Krazy Canuck Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I know, hardly a new topic....... But I need advice, even post patch I'm finding the big cats are still(for me) bogging to much. So, how is the best way to get 'em into position without losing 20-30%, stuck somewhere in, and this is what I find frustrating, the steppes or open ground. No, it's not *soft* ground, I avoid that if at all possible! Thanx guys. Btw, I can think of no better way to pass a dreary Sunday than KICKIN' COMMIE A$$, it is so easy. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Keeping the speed down seems to work best for me. For the larger vehicles, don't use fast move on anything but roads, and don't move off road if you can help it... If you've just gotta get there and there's no road, plan to leave a few of the boys by the wayside... ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 What are the exact weather conditions? I've noticed my Tigers still keep getting stuck in open ground post-patch as well. Ground conditions were damp, but not muddy. I guess that early-morning dew is all it takes to immobilize the fearsome Tiger. Will have to try some QB's with hot and dry conditions and see if that helps any.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner: What are the exact weather conditions? I've noticed my Tigers still keep getting stuck in open ground post-patch as well. Ground conditions were damp, but not muddy. I guess that early-morning dew is all it takes to immobilize the fearsome Tiger. Will have to try some QB's with hot and dry conditions and see if that helps any..Cold and clear. To properly deploy 8 Panthers and 9 Tigers completely across the front I have to go off the 1 road. After 5 turns I have lost 2 Panthers and 1 Tiger to *bogged* then to immobolized. Right now(turn 6), 2 more Panthers and 2 Tigers are bogged, and I haven't fired a shot! I'm about to give up on CMBB as it's proveing to realistic for me. Also, I try to stop a bogged tank ASAP and reverse it on the next turn, I've saved one this way...so far. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Well, I also don't like to loose so many tanks to this - and this includes the tanks of my opponent!!! An immobile enemy tank somewhere far of the front is a tank I can't kill! This means in game terms, I loose the chance to make a lot of points for my victory. In a current battle my opponent had several Elephants - and lost them all to bog/immobile in the first half. I never had a chance to fight those tanks with my IS-II. I have no idea if I had chance to win against them, but my opponent was so frustated that he just given up. This is not the way I like to win a battle. I think if a feature reduces the game fun so much, it strongly should be reconsidered. [ December 01, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Scipio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 I agree. I think the bogging could stand a touch more tweaking. I mean, even on dry, firm ground they constantly get stuck. Surely real-life Tigers, etc didn't bog that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 So far all i'm getting from this is that tanks shouldnt bog because it costs people potential points in ladder games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by Scipio: [QB]Well, I also don't like to loose so many tanks to this - and this includes the tanks of my opponent!!! An immobile enemy tank somewhere far of the front is a tank I can't kill! This means in game terms, I loose the chance to make a lot of points for my victory. In a current battle my opponent had several Elephants - and lost them all to bog/immobile in the first half. I never had a chance to fight those tanks with my IS-II. I have no idea if I had chance to win against them, but my opponent was so frustated that he just given up. This is not the way I like to win a battle. I think if a feature reduces the game fun so much, it strongly should be reconsidered. -------------------------------------------------- Most importantly I *do not* want this to turn into a whine nor bitch thread! I'm just wondering if there is a better way to move those bigger tanks around a battlefield without losing 20-30% to bogging and then immobilizing. I won't play rainy nor very damp conditions for that very reason.....I was hoping that the patch would lower these losses in dry conditions more than they have. Is it historically correct for the Germans to suffer those kind of losses due to bogging?.....even in those vast steppes? KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Bogging was a problem for both sides in the conflict. The Soviet Union was a very muddy place come spring thaw, plus due to lack of paved roads ect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 I only play single-player, so ladder games mean nothing to me. My point is that when the ground is dry or frozen , tanks shoudn't be bogging that freaking much.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJungnitsch Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Of course anything is going to bog if the going is bad enough, but if the MMP figures are right then Panther and Tigers should float pretty well. A Panther has considerably better floatation than a T-34/76, a Tiger I with battletracks or a Tiger II only slightly worse, and still better than a T-34/85. Elephants though are boat anchors , and I believe combat accounts bear this out. Before sending out Elephants the ground was checked out extremely carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 This is fast becoming an issue for me as well. I always play Soviet, my T34's regularly bog and immobilize. Lately with 9 T34s purchased, on damp ground, and each traveling say 400 meters I get 1 or 2 immobilized. The ground pressure for T34 is 10.7 psi, the Panther is 11.8 psi and the Tiger 13.9 psi. Is this (the amount of bogging) historically accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJungnitsch Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 The ground pressure for T34 is 10.7 psi, the Panther is 11.8 psi and the Tiger 13.9 psi. Is this (the amount of bogging) historically accurate?That is nominal ground pressure, weight divided by track area. Easy to figure out and certainly true on a concrete floor. MMP (mean maximum pressure) takes into account a number of other factors such as the length of the track links, the number and size of suspension wheels etc which apparently makes a huge difference in soft ground. MMP of Panther is 150, T-34/76 is 174, Tiger II is 184, T-34/85 is 196, Stalin II is 245, Elephant is 370. You can look up the articles on NGP vs MMP here under the 'other interests' link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Thanks Paul. It's interesting that the Panther actually has a smaller MMP than the T34. Still, it doesn't make sense to me that these tanks immobilize due to bogging so much. [ December 01, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Maxx ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Krazy Canuck, you posted the weather, not the ground conditions. What are they? The thing that annoys me here is that the Quickbattle editor doesn't allow you to choose ground conditions, they are always random, influenced by region and weather. I don't like it because sometimes you agree with your opponent you want dry ground and there's no way to get it unless restarting the battle a few times. Overall, the bog probablity on damp or worse ground doesn't look off to me on average. But the CM model of purely ground pressure as in thread surface/weight comes up with a wrong ranklist of bogging machines. [ December 01, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by Gaylord Focker: So far all i'm getting from this is that tanks shouldnt bog because it costs people potential points in ladder games? Huh? Who is talking about ladders? I'm talking about victory points in game. You know that the victory is calculated with points, yes? Generally, I think the problem is not that tanks bog, but that they get immobile so often. At least for me it would solve the problem if the number of tanks getting immobile after bogging would be strongly reduced. BTW, do anybody know if the experience of the crew has any influence on it, and if not - why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: [QB]Krazy Canuck, you posted the weather, not the ground conditions. What are they? ================================================== Steppes, hills, mud. SPOILER > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was Korsun Relief! I ended up with a major victory......but, I had 3 Tigers immobilized out of the fight as well as 4 Panthers. Hmm, 7 out of 17=41% losses due to bogging for the axis, while I count 2 out of 32 heavy Tanks and Tank Destroyers immoblolized for the bad guys. Poor odds for the Axis.... I used only *move* commands for all offroad travel. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Well, mud is mud. Sounds right to me. You might want to edit the scenario to have "damp" instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Canuck Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: [QB]Well, mud is mud. Sounds right to me. You might want to edit the scenario to have "damp" instead. ================================================== "Mud is mud" explains 7 out of 17 as the Axis vs. 2 out of 32 for the Russians??? All I really wanted to know is if there is/was a tried and true method of moving tanks(specifically Axis) around the battlefield without such high rates of bogging.............I was concerned I was doing something wrong..oh well. Oh yeah, "cold and clear" weather conditions during February in Russia would indicate to me that most of the mud would be frozen. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 [please fix your quoting, thanks] Originally posted by Krazy Canuck: "Mud is mud" explains 7 out of 17 as the Axis vs. 2 out of 32 for the Russians??? Yes, sounds about right. There are specific vehicles I think get a too pessimistic big probablity in CMBO and CMBB, but overall the Axis is screwed when compared to T-34 and KV/IS line tanks. Those were much better in most difficult ground conditions. See other people's postings for more specific suggestions which Axis tanks might be too pessimistic. Oh yeah, "cold and clear" weather conditions during February in Russia would indicate to me that most of the mud would be frozen. Especially in the area of the Korsum pocket. This should be easy to check in history books - which the scenario designer probably did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Smallwood Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Add me to the list of non-grogs who nonetheless find the amount of bogging to strain credulity, especially on frozen. I posted recently with an instance of an HT bogging on 'Road'; some said maybe that was mechanical failure abstraction, but nobody knew for sure... The issue for me is not whether the game should model reality- it should, that's why we're here. But that this degree of bogging was the reality is what I find incredible. BogGrogs please illuminate us. "Oh, btw Adolf- we're losing about a third of our tanks to bogging every fifteen minutes- the Russian ice is just...really boggy." "Can you redesign the tanks then?" "No, our CadCam program has a fixed tread size..." ? Eden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by ianc: Keeping the speed down seems to work best for me. For the larger vehicles, don't use fast move on anything but roads, and don't move off road if you can help it... If you've just gotta get there and there's no road, plan to leave a few of the boys by the wayside... iancWhat he said. On avg. the Soviet tanks have ridiculously good PSI's, while the German stuff is average (Panther) to medium to awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikser Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Does the game consider anything besides NGP (and ground type, weather, etc., of course) when considering the likelihood of tank models bogging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by Mikser: Does the game consider anything besides NGP (and ground type, weather, etc., of course) when considering the likelihood of tank models bogging?AFAIK, no. However, the ground pressure ratings in some cases are fudged a little to take other factors into consideration. For example, the JPz IV/70 has a ground pressure rating higher that it actually had to reflect the fact that it was front heavy, and tended to bury the barrel of its gun in the ground when crossing depressions. At least that's how it was in CMBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Here's touched on one thing I lack in CMBB; Frozen ground condition. - Hard as pavement (or thereabout), so Open, Steppe, Soft, Grain and Dirt road will provide easy going for vehicles. - No risk of actual bogging, but you can still get a puncture or throw a track. Still better movement than Dry though. - Negligable snow. - The ground is saturated with ice, so there's almost no risk of spreading fires. This was the ground condition in the Moscow area early December '41, before the snow got deep. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts