Patton Musuem Extravaganza

[WWB]

Originally posted by Blackhorse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wwb_99:

Argh. I got beat to the forum.

Well, all I have to say is WOW! The museum is flippin awesome, and CMBB better still. Many thanks to Blackhorse and the other fine individuals who made the tour possible, and I hope to be posting some pictures soon.

WWB

Looking forward to the pics WWB!</font>

[USTanker]

Nice pictures Harv. And we even let you out of the country with them.

Glad I had the opportunity to meet you and the rest of the gang.

[jgdpzr]

I have a question for all gun grogs out there. Check out Harv's photos and see if you can tell us what gun is in the very last picture. We couldn't figure it out. The bore looked no bigger than 88mm, although an engraving on the sheild(Randl is examining it in the photo) had the number 15 and some other writing that wasn't legible (at least we couldn't make it out). Anyone have any ideas? BTW, the muzzle break looked Russian (slotted), while the wheels definitely looked German.

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

I have a question for all gun grogs out there. Check out Harv's photos and see if you can tell us what gun is in the very last picture. We couldn't figure it out. The bore looked no bigger than 88mm, although an engraving on the sheild(Randl is examining it in the photo) had the number 15 and some other writing that wasn't legible (at least we couldn't make it out). Anyone have any ideas? BTW, the muzzle break looked Russian (slotted), while the wheels definitely looked German.

Alright, the name will get the uber-grogs going, but I think I identified the gun (although there is an outstanding question, see below). Paraphrased from _German Artillery of World War II_ (Ian Hogg, 1975), the gun is a:

75mm Panzerabwehrkanone 41, or 7.5cm Pak 41.

And no, I am not confusing this with our other Pak 41 (88mm). I can't fully identify the gun, because the photo does not include a view of the muzzle brake. The muzzle brake on the 7.5cm Pak 41 was a multi-baffle design. However, the rivet shield, the size of the breach, the spoked wheels, and the unusual mounting arrangement make me think this is the beast.

The 7.5cm Pak 41 incorporated both a "coned bore" and tungsten-core ammunition to realize a high velocity and exceptional killing capability. Unfortunately (or fortunately), only 150 were built before the project was canceled due to a shortage of tungsten. Thereafter, the guns were scrapped or the carriage modified to support the Pak 40.

The carriage and shield was a unique design. The shield was not simply added, but actually served as a means of mounting the gun. It was part of the assembly and the gun was carried in a cradle assembly that was suspended in the shield by a gimbal and vertical trunnions.

So, with the correct guess do I win a free copy of CMBB delivered today for beta testing??

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

The carriage and shield was a unique design. The shield was not simply added, but actually served as a means of mounting the gun. It was part of the assembly and the gun was carried in a cradle assembly that was suspended in the shield by a gimbal and vertical trunnions.

I think you nailed it! You certainly described the shield and mount quite accurately. The shield definitely appeared to a be a load bearing part of the assembly, and yes there was a gimbal mount in the front. Outstanding work! We were all scratching our heads over this one, even the guys who worked there.

Edited for spelling

[ August 09, 2002, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: jgdpzr ]

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zitadelle:

The carriage and shield was a unique design. The shield was not simply added, but actually served as a means of mounting the gun. It was part of the assembly and the gun was carried in a cradle assembly that was suspended in the shield by a gimbal and vertical trunnions.

I think you nailed it! You certainly described the shield and mount quite accurately. The shield definitely appeared to a be a load bearing part of the assembly, and yes there was a gimbal mount in the front. Outstanding work! We were all scratching our heads over this one, even the guys who worked there.

</font>

[Kingfish]

Pak 41

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Pak 41

Yep, that's it. Mystery solved.

[Randl]

Originally posted by tankboy74:

.....I was glad to be able to get the keys and show you all around all day, it was just as much a pleasure for me as it was for you. Yet I must say that my getting into this game has significantly cut down on my sleeping at night since the tour.....-Lt LeBlanc

Thank you for all you did sir! You added a lot to the day. I particularly enjoyed your comments and stories

When you get tired of beating the tar out of the AI and want to try a PBEM with an easy mark, give me a shout. If I am not any better than the AI, I at least like to think I am more interesting than the AI opponent

--Randl

[Blackhorse]

I was too, until I downloaded them. I will try and do some photoshop work to rescue what I can, but very little came out well.

Might make sense to pool resources and put together one gallery though.

WWB[/QB]

Dang. I hope you can at least recover some of them.

[ August 09, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Blackhorse ]

[Harv]

I swear I'll regret saying this, but WWB actually has a good idea about the gallery.

Matt? You there? Any extra space at CMHQ we could borrow for a bit? I do have a little story about you and a Greyhound (the M8, not the dog) that could be "forgotten" perhaps if you could spare a little bandwidth.

Harv

[Blackhorse]

Originally posted by Harv:

I swear I'll regret saying this, but WWB actually has a good idea about the gallery.

Matt? You there? Any extra space at CMHQ we could borrow for a bit? I do have a little story about you and a Greyhound (the M8, not the dog) that could be "forgotten" perhaps if you could spare a little bandwidth.

Harv

I believe there is photographic evidence to go along with that "story". At least I hope so!

[Madmatt]

I know I got what feels like a pulled groin muscle because of that damn M8. Next time I am wearing my combat boots and bringing my extra large MagLite when I go scurrying around on tanks!

Yeah, I will get something setup on CMHQ over the weekend for anyone that needs it. Best thing to do is assemble all the pics, zip them up in packs of 5 megs or so and email them to me. Then I can create a gallery for all of them.

Madmatt

[DaveT]

My pictures came out real good. I will send them to Madmatt this weekend.

Dave

[Blackhorse]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

I know I got what feels like a pulled groin muscle because of that damn M8.

Madmatt

I know I said it a few times, but imagine fighting your way across Europe for almost a year in one of those things.

Those boys had balls of steel.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Blackhorse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt:

I know I got what feels like a pulled groin muscle because of that damn M8.

Madmatt

I know I said it a few times, but imagine fighting your way across Europe for almost a year in one of those things.

Those boys had balls of steel.</font>

[Madmatt]

Okay, I have combined my pictures and those by Dave Turner into one big gallery.

Here is the link.

http://www.combatmission.com/Patton/index.htm

Here are some comments that I took for my pictures at least. I have also added some further ID comments from Steve.

Here is what they are:

All file names have "IM00" before the number below.

2752-2754 Jadgpanzer IV Road wheel detail. This vehicle was just added to the museum.

2755 Close up of the three color camo on JgPzIV

2756 Rear view JgPz IV (Hehe... active tank = oilpan, cat litter, and cardboard underneath )

2757 Close up on gun mount of JgPz IV

2758 PzIII not sure which model but it had turret skirts and a increased front hull vertical armor plate.

2759- close up detail on PzIII side

2760 StuG III (G as I recall), suffered lots of damage to both sides and fenders.

2761 Another PzIII shot from other side

2762 StuG III headon

2763 StuGIII right side

2764 Panther (supposedly this is the Panther II but I thought it was marked as a G)

2765 Panther Headon

2766-67 Panther Road wheel detail

2768 Panther Turret side detail

2769 Panther Rear deck detail, service hatch opened

2770 King Tiger cutaway side. Jeff Smith in foreground.

2771 KT Roadwheel detail

2772 KT Rear Deck Detail

2773 KT from the rear

2774 Museum floor shot with KT on the left and JgPzIV on the right, Panther, StuG and PZIII in background.

2775 US halftrack

2776 Size comparrison shot Panther, StuG III and PzIII from farthest to nearest.

2777 3/4 perspective on JgPz IV (KT in background)

2778 Some prototype US tank, bogged

2779 Panther,

2780 KT Gun mount closeup

2781 KT Track

2782 Hellcat Track

2783 PzIII track

2784 StuG Track

2785 PzIII side detail

2786 PzIII turret detail

2787 Panther Track

2788 T34/85 turret gap closeup. Width of gap, measured approx. 8 inches in heigth! T34/85 was from Korea

2789 T34/85 Track

2790-2792 T34/85 various angles.

2793 Interior hull T34/85 shot taken through drives hatch

2794 T34/85 from front, drivers hatch open.

2795 100mm armor plate with various holes in it

2796-2802 Anti-tank Rifles, all came out dark though

2803 Panzerschrek

2804 Group pic by the T-28

2805 Rune and the 'lil' Runes

2806-08 PaK 38

2809 Can I take it home??? Me standing in the TC's position of the Hetzer!

2812 Me deffinetly needing to go on a diet and sitting in the drivers spot of the Hetzer.

2813 Hetzers 75mm

2814 Me behind a .50 cal mockup on a US halftrack.

2815-16 105mm shells.

2817 Kubelwagon

2818 front shell of SdKfz 251/9 apparently

2819 the rest of the SdKfz

2820 US Pak 75mm Howitzer

2821 Looking in from the rear of the SdKfz

2822 ATG muzzel brake

2823 ATG gun shield

Apparently those were from a PAW 600.

Steve said this about those two above pics:

I had to look it up in a couple of books to be sure, but I knew what it wasn't (Pak38 or Pak40) right away. I suspected it was the PAW 600, but wasn't totally sure until I checked 2 different books.

There are four features that confirmed this...

1. The shield is totally wrong for a Pak38 and similar to Pak40, yet

quite different.

2. In the shot that shows the barrel poking out through the shield...

the gun rail's front end is VERY different from both the Pak38 and Pak40,which have have a pretty "fancy" and similar "cap" at the end. The PAW 600 has a much more crude bent piece of metal bolted on.

3. The barrel is not attached to the gun rail the same way that the

Pak38 and Pak40 are, both of which are similar to each other (the Pak40

was a scaled up Pak38 in many ways).

4. The breech, which is just visible in the second pic. The Pak38 and

Pak40 had a left side sliding breech, while the PAW 600 had a rather

unusual shaped breech block which had a down sliding breech.

2824-2839 Random AT Guns and Mortars Note the nice shot of the goofy Soviet 76.2mm 1927/39 Rgt Gun

2830 Iraqi T-72

2831 Outside lot with lots of vehicles

2832 75mm laying on some crates (looks to have been from a 251/9 and it is lying upside down)

2833 A short 75mm used used for defense during Berlin. It was on a strange kind of carriage/pintol mount. Pretty cool

2834-2838 Random ATG's (2835 is a Soviet M1938 45mm ATG)

2839 My penis...well sorta

2840 Inside a Centurion as I recall

2841 Sherman that had a shell explode in barrel.

[ August 10, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ]

[Madmatt]

I have just uploaded another 121 pictures. These are from Harv.

http://www.combatmission.com/Patton/Harv/index.htm

Enjoy the pics, we sure enjoyed being there!

Madmatt

[Mace]

Thanks for sharing the photos with us guys. Would have been great to be there.

Mace

[Blackhorse]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

I have just uploaded another 121 pictures. These are from Harv.

http://www.combatmission.com/Patton/Harv/index.htm

Enjoy the pics, we sure enjoyed being there!

Madmatt

Those pictures turned out great!

Did we not get a picture of the "Greyhound Incident"?

I suppose eyewitness testimony will have to suffice afterall.

[ August 11, 2002, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Blackhorse ]

[Prinz Eugen]

Wa-hey ! Now I know why HE is called the "Bald One "

This is a happy moment in my life...

[DaveT]

To everyone who was there,

OK guys I know there were more than 3 cameras at Fort Knox. I would realy like to see the pictures the rest of you took.So lets get on the stick and send them to Matt.

I would also like to say again how great it was to meet all of you, and to have the most fun on a tusday I have had in a while.

Dave

[rune]

Well just got home last night and sent a couple emails. Now after some strange custom called sleep. posting here.

First, thanks to the gang from Ft. Knox. Was a wonderful trip and seeing the back lots was amazing. My kids are still talking about their favorite tanks. So to Chris, Jeff and Doug, many many thanks.

Second, will send my pictures to Matt later today. I have yet another soccer meeting to go to today, and will try to get them to Matt this afternoon. After seeing personally the amount of tanks that had gun damage, I will never complain about it again. Got some great photos of gun damaged tanks.

Third, to everyone else that attended, tanks...err...thanks! From the amount of drool that had to be wiped from the floors, will assume you were impressed.

Last, Was a pleasure meeting everyone, yesm even you Harv. In just playing around with the editor, we made a map of 12 300mm rocket spotters vs a battalion of Russian infantry. The spotters won big with prep bombardment, a whopping 10 men survived on the Russian side.

SO again, thanks to the Army and the Patton Museum, and the folks that took their days off to take care of us.

Rune

[Blackhorse]

Originally posted by rune:

SO again, thanks to the Army and the Patton Museum, and the folks that took their days off to take care of us.

Rune

And our thanks to you Rune for being the impetus behind the entire adventure. Without you, it would never have happened.

THANKS!

Blackhorse

[Gordon]

Great photos, really wish I'd have been there as it sounds like a most excellent adventure. If there's ever another one, I'll try like hell to make it.

Gordon