Extreme Fog of War (FOW) in CMMB and Gamey Cheats and Loopholes?

[aka_tom_w]

Hi to Steve and Charles and the BTS CMBB Play testers.

I think about CMBB ALL the time....

really

On my way to work this morning I was wondering if you have any keen young Video gamer GAMERS play testing CMBB to check for loopholes and gamey tactics or cheats?

What I mean is this game is likely to appeal to video game player gamers as well, at least we all hope it appeals to that segment of the market so you will sell more copies

Anyway I'm wondering with all the focus on historical accuracy and military detail and the like, will there be any exploitable loopholes in the extreme fog of war settings?

I am actually suggesting you might consider a focus group of KEEN teenagers that already playing CMBO and let them try TOTALLY gamey and ahistorical tactics and tricks in CMBB in extreme fog of war to see what happens.

ONE interesting tactic that other new players to the game, younger video game gamers, who know next to NOTHING about military tactics, have determined that a successful attack can be mounted by band boxing EVERY unit on the start line and giving them ALL a run or FAST move order STRAIGHT ahead. Seriously, it matters not how they are lined up or where they are, no thought is needed, you just select EVERY unit you have an send them all straight ahead as fast as they can go...... (IT doesn't work all the time but it is the kind of gamey thing you can do when you don't know what else to do)

I just wanted to suggest that the "gamey" Video Game play testers may have some NEW interesting insights into Extreme FOW in CMBB if you let them at it and watch how they play.

The first thing some of us are going to do when we get CMBB is take a GOOD long hard look at the Extreme FOW setting and see how to "beat" it or optimize the information about the opposing force by risking our cheapest or most expendable units.

For instance, will the gamey Sucide Jeep rush work to draw fire and will you get any good results from that? Are anti tank teams and sharp shooters still good recon units?

Who can see what on the battlefield?

What are my best units for recon purposes?

Hopefully with the EXTREME FOW setting, Recon will take on a NEW priority as getting hammered by opposing units you can't see will become VERY annoying.

I am hopeing you folks will PLAY test the HELL out of the EXTREME fow setting so there are no obvious gamey cheats or loopholes to exploit, and to that end I humbly suggest you let teenage GAMEY video game players at it who know nothing about sound military tactics on the Eastern front and see how they do?

Just a Thought?

Waiting patiently for the BEST war game of all time.....

-tom w

[Madmatt]

Yes.

Madmatt

[Urban Shocker]

I invited a friend to sit down and try a mission and he did themad dash and mopped up. He then decided that the game sucked. Later, he realized that there was more depth to it but his opinion was colored by that first encounter.

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Tom,

While CMBB will not offer the kind of Fog of War we would all like (i.e. Relative Spotting), it has been beefed up to counteract The Borg spotting probelm a bit more. For example...

Hopefully with the EXTREME FOW setting, Recon will take on a NEW priority as getting hammered by opposing units you can't see will become VERY annoying.

I just did a test scenario last night where a company of Regular Soviets were pinned down and beat up by German HMGs for 30 turns. They never spotted them more than "sound contact?". Granted, there weren't enough troops in the game to get The Borg kicking in full tilt like it can in a real game, but in CMBO more information would certainly have been aquired, easier, and sooner than what I saw.

Extreme Fog of War is going to be the standard option for most people

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Urban Shocker,

I invited a friend to sit down and try a mission and he did themad dash and mopped up. He then decided that the game sucked.

Hehe... well, at least he rethunk it Doing a mad rush can, sometimes, work against the AI but against a Human should be a different story. I say "should" because not all players are created equal

BTW, we have probably made a few dozen fundamental changes which will greatly reduce the chances of a mad rush from working. Extreme Fog of War is certainly one of them.

Steve

[dalem]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Hi Tom,

While CMBB will not offer the kind of Fog of War we would all like (i.e. Relative Spotting), it has been beefed up to counteract The Borg spotting probelm a bit more. For example...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hopefully with the EXTREME FOW setting, Recon will take on a NEW priority as getting hammered by opposing units you can't see will become VERY annoying.

I just did a test scenario last night where a company of Regular Soviets were pinned down and beat up by German HMGs for 30 turns. They never spotted them more than "sound contact?". Granted, there weren't enough troops in the game to get The Borg kicking in full tilt like it can in a real game, but in CMBO more information would certainly have been aquired, easier, and sooner than what I saw.

Extreme Fog of War is going to be the standard option for most people

Steve</font>

[Determinant]

Hurrah! Extreme fog of war! (hugs self with excitement)...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Hi Tom,

While CMBB will not offer the kind of Fog of War we would all like (i.e. Relative Spotting), it has been beefed up to counteract The Borg spotting probelm a bit more. For example...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hopefully with the EXTREME FOW setting, Recon will take on a NEW priority as getting hammered by opposing units you can't see will become VERY annoying.

I just did a test scenario last night where a company of Regular Soviets were pinned down and beat up by German HMGs for 30 turns. They never spotted them more than "sound contact?". Granted, there weren't enough troops in the game to get The Borg kicking in full tilt like it can in a real game, but in CMBO more information would certainly have been aquired, easier, and sooner than what I saw.

Extreme Fog of War is going to be the standard option for most people

Steve</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Tom,

I hope this comment was not taken the wrong way...

Nope I understood what you meant. As for gamey loopholes... there most likely will be SOMETHING, but the only way they are discovered is through intensive play by many people. The reason is that if we can think of a loophole now we will fix it prior to release. If something is discovered after, we'll sew it up just like we try to do with every loophole brought to our attention.

To answer your question and Dale's at the same time, yes... recon will take on a new importance. However, "recon" itself, as I think Dale is thinking about, is still outside the scope of a single battle. Recon can be broken down (roughly) into three different types:

1. Recon by Surprise - two forces bump into each other without much of any prior knowledge. This could be an attacker/defender or meeting engagement type situation. Recon has to be done quickly and on the fly since the battle has already been engaged. The other option is to pull back and do:

2. Recon by Patrol - one force probes and gathers information about the other over a significant period of time (at CM's scale). This can be done in many different ways, but generally involves moving small units around to locate and log enemy positions. Taking a prisoner can be a goal of opportunity or the entire purpose of a specific mission. But the point here is that this is done BEFORE the battle proper is engaged and takes quite a bit of time to do.

3. Recon by Coordination - this would be the kind of operation which involves both of the above in preparation for a much larger operation. Time taken for this could stretch over many months and involve dozens of small battles and hundreds of patrols.

The only type of Recon which is valid for single CM Battle is #1. It is the only thing that is within the scope of the game, and is the only thing that I think people would want to play. I personally would *hate* being the defender and waiting 30 turns for the attacker to finish up his patrols. For this sort of game an Operation is much more in order.

Steve

[dalem]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

To answer your question and Dale's at the same time, yes... recon will take on a new importance. However, "recon" itself, as I think Dale is thinking about, is still outside the scope of a single battle. Recon can be broken down (roughly) into three different types:

1. Recon by Surprise - two forces bump into each other without much of any prior knowledge. This could be an attacker/defender or meeting engagement type situation. Recon has to be done quickly and on the fly since the battle has already been engaged. The other option is to pull back and do:

2. Recon by Patrol - one force probes and gathers information about the other over a significant period of time (at CM's scale). This can be done in many different ways, but generally involves moving small units around to locate and log enemy positions. Taking a prisoner can be a goal of opportunity or the entire purpose of a specific mission. But the point here is that this is done BEFORE the battle proper is engaged and takes quite a bit of time to do.

3. Recon by Coordination - this would be the kind of operation which involves both of the above in preparation for a much larger operation. Time taken for this could stretch over many months and involve dozens of small battles and hundreds of patrols.

The only type of Recon which is valid for single CM Battle is #1. It is the only thing that is within the scope of the game, and is the only thing that I think people would want to play. I personally would *hate* being the defender and waiting 30 turns for the attacker to finish up his patrols. For this sort of game an Operation is much more in order.

Steve

Understood and agreed. Good point about using an Op for a multistage single battle, not just a series of brute slugfests.

-dale

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Hi Tom,

As for gamey loopholes... there most likely will be SOMETHING, but the only way they are discovered is through intensive play by many people. The reason is that if we can think of a loophole now we will fix it prior to release. If something is discovered after, we'll sew it up just like we try to do with every loophole brought to our attention.

Steve

GREAT!

We knew you would...

"we'll sew it up just like we try to do with every loophole brought to our attention"

For those folks new to this board or this game or new to BTS, if the say "we'll sew it up just like we try to do with every loophole brought to our attention" THEN they mean it!

CMBO was patched several times before it was considered finally complete, and it now has virtually NO gamey loopholes to exploit in it. (anymore)(it may have OTHER issues that we still debate, BUT all the really gamey unrealistic exploitable loopholes were dealt with in the patches that followed the game)

THIS game and this Company that produces this GAME and CMBB is REALLY truely radically different (And I mean that in GOOD way!) then any other game company you have ever bought a video game from.

It shows, because they are Wargamers who are making games that THEY would REALLY like to play themselves and they don't "settle" on just some crappy game then make a profit from it! NO they make it RIGHT and play test it to death until it works they they had originally intended, then they just share the game with us for a small fee !

What a GREAT business model...

I'm ONLY ranting about this for all the NEW folks here who were not around for the CMBO Beta Demo, its development and its long anticipated arrival and then the obligatory subsquent patches.

Keep up the good work!

-tom w

[ February 21, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Madmatt]

So I guess my FOW style answer wasn't enough then? :confused:

Madmatt

[dalem]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

So I guess my FOW style answer wasn't enough then? :confused:

Madmatt

We just like to make you do extra work, {b]Madmatt.

-dale

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I just did a test scenario last night where a company of Regular Soviets were pinned down and beat up by German HMGs for 30 turns

Whoa, mama!

An entire company by one MG!!!

MG's are worth buying again! Whopeee!

:eek: :eek:

[Panzer_Meyer]

Commisar,

He said MGs, hence the s as in plural, multiple MGs. Could of been 2 or 3 or more but I am sure it was more than one!

[aka_tom_w]

seems like a good review as we wait for CMBB

and the NEW Extreme FOW

can't wait

-tom w

[zukkov]

giving your entire force a fast move order on the first turn isn't gamey, at least not on the russian front. the soviets attacked just that way all too often, with bloody results(most of the time). it can be a good way to overrun weakly held defenses, outposts,etc. guess i'm stating the obvious here, but i'm trying to get that "junior" out of my member status. i feel like i should be wearing shortpants, kneehigh socks, a beany cap with propeller on top, and licking an oversized lollipop in one hand, while holding on to a helium filled balloon in the other. lol..

[jeffsmith]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i feel like i should be wearing shortpants, kneehigh socks, a beany cap with propeller on top, and licking an oversized lollipop in one hand, while holding on to a helium filled balloon in the other. lol..

Well, thats good...

Because thats how we all think of you

[Cull]

Two things:

Steve's second(?) reply kind of hit on what I was thinking....you could muck around forever in the extreme FOW with recon. Even though most games begin without contact, I've always assumed that, given the short time frame/scope/scale of a game, each side knows the other is there. The battle has been joined; turn 1 is the start of the fightin'.

Obviously, it's kind of a blend here. You can setup all kinds of ways, but even the large maps are still relatively "small"---you know they're out there. Or should I say there? You can hide on defense, you can sneak on the attack. But the fight is on, at least mentally. Anyway, that's just my concept of it.

Second, regarding the ol' "human wave" thing, aka, "line up and charge forward". Obviously, this is a serious point of discussion for CMBB, and I'm sure it's being worked very closely by BTS. I'm reading a book currently (not sure of it's validity--I need to research it a bit) that gives some detailed reports/opinions from German Generals on the fighting tactics and styles of the Russians. The general impression I get is that this tactic was very common, or at least the "tactic" of throwing hordes of infantry forward with wanton disregard to losses. These Germans agree that it was brutal yet quite effective, especially after the "tide had turned" post-Stalingrad. I suppose the style of that will only be gamey if the game doesn't handle it well, i.e., too many defenders exposing themselves in response, etc. The real concern would be with the "sacrificial jeep" type thing.

Which reminds me! I remember hearing something about defensive "fields of fire" commands of some type, whereby your unit only fires within a certain "cone of influence"? Does anyone know if that is in the works, either as a player controllable feature or built-in?

Oh jesus I rambling again....out!

[lewallen]

Originally posted by Jack Arilliac:

Which reminds me! I remember hearing something about defensive "fields of fire" commands of some type, whereby your unit only fires within a certain "cone of influence"? Does anyone know if that is in the works, either as a player controllable feature or built-in?

In CM:BB you will be able to set fields of fire. This is called the "Cover Arc" command, and replaces the Ambush command from CM:BO. It also acts as a "rotate turret" command for tanks, so you can make their turrets cover one arc while they drive in a different direction. IIRC, you'll be able to designate an arc up to 180 degrees and up to infinite range to have the unit engage enemies in. There is also a "Cover Armor Arc" which will tell units to fire only on hard targets within that arc (good for units like AT guns and tank destroyers that you don't want giving away their position by firing on infantry).

~Sam