SwedishPSK Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Can someone give me the names of any Tank Aces during the war? Like: Michael Wittman - StuG and Tiger (the vehicles they commanded) Write down the ones you know and the vehicle they drove... BOTH German and Allied.. SWE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotka Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by SwedishPSK: Can someone give me the names of any Tank Aces during the war? Like: Michael Wittman - StuG and Tiger (the vehicles they commanded) Write down the ones you know and the vehicle they drove... BOTH German and Allied.. SWEHere is one obvious link for you: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/general.htm Regards, Seppo "Es gibt keine verzweifelten Lagen, es gibt nur verzweifelte Menschen" -- Heinz Guderian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 How many kills did a tanker need for Ace status? Mord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auggy Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I don't think "KILLS" were a major thing need to be a tanker ace unlike a fighter pilot who needed so many kills for that status. I'm thinking that Tank Ace was more of a leadership quality such as rommel or others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Sir Augustus: I don't think "KILLS" were a major thing need to be a tanker ace unlike a fighter pilot who needed so many kills for that status. I'm thinking that Tank Ace was more of a leadership quality such as rommel or others.actually i thought tank "ace" was exactly the same as for the flyboys. 5 confirmed kills. anyway, another ace is sgt ernst barkmann, a panther commander. check the scenario called "le lorey - a hard stand". it's a great match up between german panthers and american shermans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 From the recent book "Panzer Aces" by Franz Kurowski --- Dr Franz Bake Hermann Bix Rudolf von Ribbentrop Hans Bolter Albert Ernst Don't have time to go back and look at which tanks they commanded, some moved up as better or other tanks became available. From PZIII to Nashorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Most of us know about the German tank aces Wittman and Barkmann, but I don't know the name of one Allied tank ace. :eek: :confused: Does anyone know of who the Allied (western front) tank aces of WW2 were? Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Lt Bull: Most of us know about the German tank aces Wittman and Barkmann, but I don't know the name of one Allied tank ace. :eek: :confused: Does anyone know of who the Allied (western front) tank aces of WW2 were? Lt BullLafeyette Pool(US) and Joe Eskins(Brit) come to mind. Lt. Pool and his crew racked up 258 vehicle kills from June to Sept '44, ranging from Kubelwagons to Panthers. Joe Eskins was a Firefly gunner with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry, and is credited with 3 Tigers (including Wittman) on one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leta Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 In the East Front I know about Lt. Oskin who killed three King Tigers in one single battle with his T34/85. But I don't remember any other Russian tank ace. Anyone could name another, please? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 kinda interesting how some were so successful. obviously luck has a big part in it, but there must have been some key element. Good positioning, the ability to read the land and find a good spot, good communication between the crew members, and good coordination between all the other neighboring tanks. A combination of all those things, I'd say. I'd be interested in hearing about more Allied tank aces. Everyone talks about German supermen, in tanks, or aircraft, or submarines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Kingfish: Lafeyette Pool(US) and Joe Eskins(Brit) come to mind. Lt. Pool and his crew racked up 258 vehicle kills from June to Sept '44, ranging from Kubelwagons to Panthers. Joe Eskins was a Firefly gunner with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry, and is credited with 3 Tigers (including Wittman) on one day.Thanks Kingfish. I do not think I have ever heard of those names. Strangely enough, a search of those names at www.google.com did not bring up any matches. It would be good if someone could point to some websites that have refernces to these ALlied tank aces (or any other Allied tank aces). It seems usnual that there wouldn't be any references somewhere on the web. Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis: Everyone talks about German supermen, in tanks, or aircraft, or submarines... "German generals lost the war on the battlefield, but took revenge in memoirs" W.Churchill (quoting from memory) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishPSK Posted April 28, 2002 Author Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Sir Augustus: I don't think "KILLS" were a major thing need to be a tanker ace unlike a fighter pilot who needed so many kills for that status. I'm thinking that Tank Ace was more of a leadership quality such as rommel or others.From what I know Rommel never drove a tank.. at least not in action.. Tank Aces were those commanding a tank in battle.. not the strategic generals.. Originally posted by Kingfish: Lafeyette Pool(US) and Joe Eskins(Brit) come to mind. Lt. Pool and his crew racked up 258 vehicle kills from June to Sept '44, ranging from Kubelwagons to Panthers. Joe Eskins was a Firefly gunner with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry, and is credited with 3 Tigers (including Wittman) on one day. Wittman was destroyed by an aicraft rocket in the enginecompartment behind the turret.. probably by a Typhoon.. Joe Eskins didn't knock Wittmans Tank out of action.. But I agree with Lt Bull on the subject about only German Aces in all branches of the war. If you do a search on the Internet on "Tank Aces", 99% of your hits are about german ones.. Anyone know why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesreidau Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 For info on Lafayette Pool (the reason Google came up with nothing was due to a typo, see: http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_lafayette/pool_home.htm http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_lafayette/unknown_source_article.htm Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Canadian Radley-Walters and his crew killed a ton of Panthers on FRONTAL SHOTS by bouncing rounds off the mantlet bottom and through the hull roof onto the driver or bow machine gunner. He aimed for the exact point needed to precisely get the result he wanted, which was a small area. And he did it with a 75mm armed Sherman!!!!!! Look for The Valour and the Horror web site and there is alot of info on Radley-Walters. I don't have the address after ruining my favorite sites listing. [ April 28, 2002, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: rexford ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by SwedishPSK: [snips] Wittman was destroyed by an aicraft rocket in the enginecompartment behind the turret.. probably by a Typhoon.. Joe Eskins didn't knock Wittmans Tank out of action.. We've done this before, haven't we? What you say may be true, but Hubert Meyer is not usually regarded as the world's most reliable source. Gary Simpson's "Tiger Ace" is not terribly well written, but he seems to have done a spot of research on his subject, and he supports the story that 1NY got him, and I think, as Mike Reynolds says in "Steel Inferno", that this is the most widely accepted version. Joe Ekins (not Eskins), gunner of the Charlie tank of 3 troop 1NY, certainly bagged four Tigers just outside St-Aignan-le-Cramesnil on the 8th of August. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjelinek Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Try http://www.valourandhorror.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Hey thanks Wesreidau for the pick up on the typo and the links to Layfayette Pool. It is really freaky to think that he did all that in a Sherman. A statistical (fortunate) minority. If anyone has any clues as to where there might be info on the British tank ace Joe Eskins, please pass it on (is this another spelling typo?) I think guys like this deserve the same recognition as the German tank aces get. BTW, the site www.valourandhorror.com seems to be dead or down. Just me or are they having technical issues? Lt Bull [ April 29, 2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Lt Bull ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Originally posted by Lt Bull: If anyone has any clues as to where there might be info on the British tank ace Joe Eskins, please pass it on (is this another spelling typo?) Lt BullCheck out Ken Tout's book 'A fine night for tanks'. It gives a good account of Operation Totalize from the Allied perspective, and describes the Firefly ambush in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Since German tanks were usually outnumbered, it gave their commanders more chances to rack up kills/be heros.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leta Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Since German tanks were usually outnumbered, it gave their commanders more chances to rack up kills/be heros....Right. The same thing for Flight Aces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen-x87H Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Wittman was destroyed by an aicraft rocket in the enginecompartment behind the turret.. probably by a Typhoon.. Joe Eskins didn't knock Wittmans Tank out of action.." I thought we already went over this? It was determined there werent any sorties flown in the area that day which kind of invalidates that. Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Wait a minute, I was under the distinct impression that Wittmann was indeed killed by a bomb. How could this still be disputed?? Here is the following, taken from the excellent web-site Achtung Panzer : Wittmann was offered a position of an instructor at a training schoolbut he refused and returned to Normandy on July 6th and participated in the Battle of Caen (3rd to 10th of July). During July of 1944, Wittmann fought near Caen area until August. At the time Wittmann got a new Tiger #007. In the beginning of August, Wittmann along with sSSPzAbt 101 was transferred to Cintheaux area. At the time Germans tried to recapture Caen which was completely destroyed by ongoing fighting. On August 8th of 1944, a new battle began near Cintheaux. It was Wittmann's final battle. At 12:55am (as reported by SS-Hauptscharführer Höflinger - Tiger #213 which was positioned in the same field at the rear, right of Wittmann's Tiger) in a field near the road to Caen-Cintheaux, at Gaumesnil, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed and its entire crew killed. After fighting the remains of Wittmann and his crew were buried beside what was left of their Tiger, without any markings. Until 1983, the destruction of Wittmann's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armored Division, 4th Canadian Armored Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units, which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. In 1945, Mr.Serge Varin found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. Remains of Wittmann's Tiger No.007 After further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. According to Varin, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among those Tiger #007). Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away. According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly", armed with 17 pounder gun capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull. Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers, otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the night of 8/9th. Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux and were buried in an unmarked grave. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. The cemetery is located on the National Road 13 (RN 13) between Isigny-sur-Mer and Bayeux. Michael Wittmann is buried in square 47, row 3, grave 120 of "De La Cambe". On August 8th of 1944, crew of Tiger #007 from 2nd Kompanie of schwere SS-Panzer Abteilungen 101 of LSSAH was as follows: SS-Sturmmann Rudolf "Rudi" Hirschel (radioman) 24/1/3 - 44/8/8 (20 years old), SS-Unterscharführer Henrich Reimers (driver) 24/5/11 - 44/8/8 (20 years old), SS-Unterscharführer Karl Wagner (observer) 20/5/31 - 44/8/8 (24 years old), SS-Sturmmann Günther Weber (loader) 24/12/21 - 44/8/8 (20 years old), SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann (commander) 14/4/22 - 44/8/8 (30 years old). He ended up his career as a Commander of 2.Kompanie schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101 (part of 1st SS Panzer Division "LSSAH").SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann was the most successful tanker ace of World War II. His friends said that Michael Wittmann was quiet man even during combat and that he had 6th sense, to know where and how to engage the enemy. Wittmann commanded excellent crews, who were able to fully cooperate withhim and anticipated his orders. Wittmann was highly admired by his comrades and very highly thought of by his superiors. Michael Wittmann represents a real hero who fought to the bitter end for his Fatherland. Wittmann's personal bravery is unquestionable and his place in the annals of military history thoroughly deserved. Can there be any doubt?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 Unfortunately, the issue has been clouded a bit by Denis Whitaker's book A SOLDIER'S STORY...not to be confused with Omar Bradley's memoirs, this was about the Falaise Gap. Whitaker was usually pretty solid at research, or so I thought, but he tried to invent claims to Wittman's death on behalf of the Canadians. The same thing happened after the Red Baron got knocked down; it is clear that the Aussies got the Baron, but in war, "good news" is sometimes something you want to grab for yourself. What is the saying - victories have a thousand fathers but defeats are bastards (or somefink??) A veteran of the South Albertas said it best in an email to a group of us once; "I don't know who did it, I'm just glad somebody got the bastard." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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