Direct fire HE against armour

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by jjelinek:

M8 (75mm) @ 500m against Hummel, front upper hull penetration, KO, brewed up.

If you want to kill a Hummel or Nashorn, a stone thrown will do as well.

Looks like the thickness of the turret armour was probably the difference in this test. Any comments?

I don't think penetration and knockout is the issue here at all.

Is the risk of non-penetration damage bigger when hit by HE versus non-penetrating AP? In reality and in CMBO. People are probably right that in CMBO it is not, but was it in reality?

[imported_Wildman]

Wasn't there a battle in Italy, where large caliber howitzers knocked out tanks with HE. In essence, the HE hit the tanks, deformed and molded themselves to the tank surface before detonating. This causes spalding on the interior of the tank which disabled the crews.

This effect is now used in a (hope I have the right term here) Squash head HE round?

[PzKpfw 1]

During Zitadelle several Tiger E's from LSSAH blew Soviet infantry of the rear engine decks of Tigers, that Soviet Inf had climbed on, with 8.8 cm SprGr. The only damage that occured was the rear turret stowage boxes were dented & holed.

Regards, John Waters

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

ok ok ok, same pbem battle, next turn. British Sexton fires 88mm HE round into a Half-track 250/7 from 117 meters and gets a gun hit (Its a mortar HT) He he he, its kinda funny when you think about it, the HT is an open top vehicle with an inboard mortar............think about it.

The HT and crew would be toast...the 88mm blast is quite destructive.......and should be against this type of vehicle.

CDIC

PS. It is true, a track hit will never penetrate.....maybe CMBB will be different?

Gun hits are essentially treated the same way as track hits. They will never damage anything except the gun. One of my 250/1 halftracks once suffered a MG hit from a bazooka and survived with just a damaged MG.

Dschugaschwili

[Capitalistdoginchina]

A few good examples............but does this not raise a few eyebrows?

CDIC

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

During Zitadelle several Tiger E's from LSSAH blew Soviet infantry of the rear engine decks of Tigers, that Soviet Inf had climbed on, with 8.8 cm SprGr. The only damage that occured was the rear turret stowage boxes were dented & holed.

Regards, John Waters

Hi John,

Can you tell me what a SprGr is? I am not familiar with that term.

Cheers

CDIC

[Mattias]

CDIC,

Sprenggrante, explosive grenade, HE grenade that is.

Granate should be obvious and I'm pretty sure "spreng" has some kind of common Germanic / Anglo-Saxon etymological source. In Swedish, for example, the term is "spränggranat" (ä=ae)

M.

[ April 23, 2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[PzKpfw 1]

Can you tell me what a SprGr is? I am not familiar with that term.

Cheers

CDIC[/QB]

[Mattias]

Sorry for trying to steal your, eh, thunder John

M.

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Sorry for trying to steal your, eh, thunder John

M.

LOL Mattias call it early morning FOW I got up, stummbled to my PC, & answered that w/o reading the whole thread.

Regards, John Waters

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Wildman:

Wasn't there a battle in Italy, where large caliber howitzers knocked out tanks with HE. In essence, the HE hit the tanks, deformed and molded themselves to the tank surface before detonating. This causes spalding on the interior of the tank which disabled the crews.

This effect is now used in a (hope I have the right term here) Squash head HE round?

I don't doubt that there were times in the Italian campaign when artillery fighting in close defence of the battery position knocked-out tanks with HE fired direct. I would be absolutely amazed, though, if thick-walled standard HE shells ever achieved the "poultice" effect of Sir Dennis Burney's "wallbuster" (later HESH, American HEP) shell, which required considerable design work. A conventional HE shell has rigid walls and a nose fuze, whereas HESH uses thin walls and a base fuze. By the way, Mr. Picky would like to point out that the word is "spalling", not "Spalding", they make basketballs.

The approved anti-tank round for the 5.5" gun-how was the ordinary HE shell with the fuze removed and replaced by the transit plug. That, according to Ian Hogg's "British and American Artillery of WW2", was considered quite sufficient to knock the turret off any wartime tank.

All the best,

John.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

The approved anti-tank round for the 5.5" gun-how was the ordinary HE shell with the fuze removed and replaced by the transit plug. That, according to Ian Hogg's "British and American Artillery of WW2", was considered quite sufficient to knock the turret off any wartime tank.

But doesn't the above modification effectively remove the HE capability of the round and turn it into solid shot?

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

During Zitadelle several Tiger E's from LSSAH blew Soviet infantry of the rear engine decks of Tigers, that Soviet Inf had climbed on, with 8.8 cm SprGr. The only damage that occured was the rear turret stowage boxes were dented & holed.

Regards, John Waters

John,

If soviet infantry were blown off the rear decks of Tigers i would assume that these SprGr shells were not high velocity...or they were hand thrown? This would also account for the relatively little damage to the stowage boxes.....forgive my interpretation if it is wrong.

SprGr shells are a Soviet or German type shell? I am still trying to figure out who was firing at who in your post :confused:

Cheers

CDIC

[Jarmo]

I'm not alltogether sure about this, but I think direct AREA fire works the same way as indirect fire. Regular damaging of guns and tracks.

Direct fire would seem to work by the same rules whether it's AP, HE or HEAT.

I habitually area fire near enemy tanks, if I don't have clear LOS. Usually forces the tank to button up, damage is a bonus.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

[snips]

But doesn't the above modification effectively remove the HE capability of the round and turn it into solid shot?

I imagine so. 100 lbs of solid shot (45.5 Kg) with a muzzle velocity on charge super of 1,950 fps (600 m/sec).

All the best,

John.

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Lucke:

[snips]

But doesn't the above modification effectively remove the HE capability of the round and turn it into solid shot?

I imagine so. 100 lbs of solid shot (45.5 Kg) with a muzzle velocity on charge super of 1,950 fps (600 m/sec).

All the best,

John.</font>

[SpazManOught]

I played a game once where two 105 Shermans pumped round after round of HE into the front turrent of a Panter. I think the TC must have been killed and the Panther crew shocked as it just sat there doing nothing. I closed the range to 75m still facing the front of the tank and still firing HE at it and still nothing, I eventually had to go round the back to get a rear turret shot to knock it out, the whole monever took about 7 mins with goodness knows how many rounds of HE fired at the dang Panther.

Surely more damage should have been done?

[Sgt. Beavis]

Large caliber HE hitting a tank should cause some problems. Not just exterior damage to guns and and sighting equipment, but to the crew inside. The concussive force would be immense, especially when we start talking about 150 mm HE shells. The crew inside would not be feeling too good after that shockwave washed over them.

Maybe not killed, but definitely stunned, with ruptured eardrums, or knocked unconscious...

And there is the potential of just knocking the turret off the tank. Someone mentioned that earlier. I would think that's quite possible, given the explosive power of the large caliber shells. I've also read about it happening in various accounts

Within CM, it would be nice to see HE hits on tanks having the potential to knock out a vehicle, even if it doesn't penetrate the armor.

The crew inside would be turned to mush. And if the tank is unbuttoned, a TC should have a good chance of being killed when the tank is struck by a large HE round. It's unrealistic for a hit to take place, and then for the TC to just duck back inside the tank. I don't think he'd be functioning after such an event and capable of buttoning up.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

If soviet infantry were blown off the rear decks of Tigers i would assume that these SprGr shells were not high velocity...or they were hand thrown? This would also account for the relatively little damage to the stowage boxes.....forgive my interpretation if it is wrong.

SprGr shells are a Soviet or German type shell? I am still trying to figure out who was firing at who in your post :confused:

Cheers

CDIC[/QB]

Hmm not quite; Tiger A has russian infantry crawling all over it Tiger B see this and engages Yiger A with 8,8cm SprGr/HE rounds from its main gun, killing Russian infantry. Everyone is happy except the Russians and Christer the Tiger As loader who had stashed expensive Parisian porn in the now mangled rear bins. 8,8cm SprGr/HE had enough power to penatrate early Shermans at close range yet does not cause spalling in overmatching armour.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

If soviet infantry were blown off the rear decks of Tigers i would assume that these SprGr shells were not high velocity...or they were hand thrown? This would also account for the relatively little damage to the stowage boxes.....forgive my interpretation if it is wrong.

SprGr shells are a Soviet or German type shell? I am still trying to figure out who was firing at who in your post :confused:

Cheers

CDIC

Hmm not quite; Tiger A has russian infantry crawling all over it Tiger B see this and engages Yiger A with 8,8cm SprGr/HE rounds from its main gun, killing Russian infantry. Everyone is happy except the Russians and Christer the Tiger As loader who had stashed expensive Parisian porn in the now mangled rear bins. 8,8cm SprGr/HE had enough power to penatrate early Shermans at close range yet does not cause spalling in overmatching armour.[/QB]</font>

[JonS]

CDIC, my reading of it is that the HE round was fired at one of the vertical sides of the Tiger - turret or hull. The resulting detonation was enough to get rid of the troopies crawling all over the target tank, but not strong enough to damage the tank itself - except for Dieters' French porn in the stowage bins.

Regards

JonS

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hhhmmmm, isn't that what the MG is for

Someone put me out of my mental torture here, i cannot believe that German Tiger crews deliberately fired HE directly at their own tanks :eek:

I mean, picture the situation.

Tiger 1

Hey Hans, look over there, soviet troops are on the back of Lars Tiger - Quick fire a HE shell on the side of the turret, that will blow the ruskies off!

Tiger 2

(Huge explosion rocks the Tank)

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, what the F**ck was that? said Lars with blood trickling out of his ears...his head ringing with a deafening sound.

Oh, its ok Lars, that was just our buddy Hans, doing us a favour.

Lars - Christ, maybe the ruskies have captured his tank and are firing at us.....if he fires again we die....quick, load up an AP shell! Fire!!

I find it hard to imagine guys.

CDIC

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

Hhhmmmm, isn't that what the MG is for

Someone put me out of my mental torture here, i cannot believe that German Tiger crews deliberately fired HE directly at their own tanks :eek:

I mean, picture the situation.

Tiger 1

Hey Hans, look over there, soviet troops are on the back of Lars Tiger - Quick fire a HE shell on the side of the turret, that will blow the ruskies off!

Tiger 2

(Huge explosion rocks the Tank)

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, what the F**ck was that? said Lars with blood trickling out of his ears...his head ringing with a deafening sound.

Oh, its ok Lars, that was just our buddy Hans, doing us a favour.

Lars - Christ, maybe the ruskies have captured his tank and are firing at us.....if he fires again we die....quick, load up an AP shell! Fire!!

I find it hard to imagine guys.

CDIC

yes well thats the whole point of the story Tiger A fired directly at Tiger B to clear the infantry. Ask John for the report it's an actul incidence.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

[snips]

Someone put me out of my mental torture here, i cannot believe that German Tiger crews deliberately fired HE directly at their own tanks :eek:

I mean, picture the situation.

Tiger 1

Hey Hans, look over there, soviet troops are on the back of Lars Tiger - Quick fire a HE shell on the side of the turret, that will blow the ruskies off!

Tiger 2

(Huge explosion rocks the Tank)

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, what the F**ck was that? said Lars with blood trickling out of his ears...his head ringing with a deafening sound.

Oh, its ok Lars, that was just our buddy Hans, doing us a favour.

Lars - Christ, maybe the ruskies have captured his tank and are firing at us.....if he fires again we die....quick, load up an AP shell! Fire!!

I find it hard to imagine guys.

CDIC

I think you are badly over-estimating the blast effect of an 88mm-calibre HE shell. The explosive filling of a Flak 36 HE round is 0.87Kg. The British 25-pdr, of the same calibre, has slightly less filling, at 0.51 Kg, and PRO document WO 291/399, "Casualties to Churchill tanks in 25-pdr concentrations", describes the effect of 25-pdr HE bursting on a Churchill in the following terms: "There is no adverse effect on the crew from a 25 pdr direct hit. Fragments cannot penetrate the tank, and the blast is not at all uncomfortable." The experiment reported in the paper involved driving a squadron of Churchills twice through live-fired 25-pdr concentrations.

All the best,

John.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Wow, thanks for the info. This is quite enlightening. I would have used the MG!

So now, BTS why is friendly direct fire HE not modelled in CMBO ?

BTS fix or do somefink !

Cheers

CDIC