Can The Germans Beat The Soviets In The Early War?

[Col Deadmarsh]

In starting a new PBEM where I'm the Germans and the date is July 1941, I noticed that the Axis powers don't have much in the way of tanks in the early years. The Germans just don't have the firepower to match up with the KV-1 or KV-2. It's not until they get the Panzer IVF that they have a tank with a gun that can penetrate the heavy Soviet stuff.

They're also not known for their flanking ability because of their slow turrets. So how do you win with the Germs playing on these early dates?

[Bruceov]

anti tank guns

[offtaskagain]

You can try the Flak 88 out. But it's tough to use on the attack.

[Col Deadmarsh]

I was thinking guns too, but even in meeting engagements they would be a hassle to move around. I can see buying one and towing it along as you head towards the flags but to rely on multiple guns to kill KV-1's and 2's in meetings just seems silly.

[Guest Mike]

In July 41 you shuoldn't have too much problem with the KV's!!

-there won't be many of them

-if you're worried about your turrets rest assured - theirs are worse!

-their mobility is carp - they're as slow as a dead dog

-EVERTHING else you have is better than the corresponding Soviet gear in some significant way (eg reaction speed, flexibility, training, rate of fire, radios, optics, 5 man crews ,etc)

And if all else fails you have the 150mm infantry gun that doesn't care what it hits!

Of course if you're playing a scenario then you won't get to chose the forces and chances ar eif it's one of those "KV holds up the Panzer Division" ones then it will be hard precisely because THOSE germans didn't ahve the requisite equipment to take the beast out.

But if you're selecting your own forces then you shouldn't have too much trouble if you take a little care to ensure you have some options in case they appear.

[ November 28, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Jack Carr]

I just finished making several posts to a thread entitled, "Axis 10 - Soviets 0". The problem here is that historically when the Axis was mopping up, early war, in CMBB, they have a hard time winning. On the flip side, from 1943 on when the Axis was retreating and losing, in CMBB, the superior tanks like Tiger and Panther give them the edge and it is hard for the Soviets to win.

- Quite the historical accuracy dilemma -

The next question is obvious...How can this be?

(Get's up from chair...gets a drink...sits back down and waits)

Seriously I am intersted in anything anyone has to say on this point. Good thread here!

[Gaylord Focker]

Stuka.

[PiggDogg]

Jack,

These are the short answers.

In the early war, the Germans had operational and tactical superiority on most (or enough) of the front in areas in areas other than one's particular BB meeting engagement.

In the later war (and this will be the cute answer, not the exact, technical answer), the Russians had bunches of T34s where the Germans and no or very few tanks. :eek:

Our particular BB MEs are those relatively rare instances where approximately equal numbers and forces met each other.

I don't need to provide precise additional explanation. You are bright enough to figure out the proper implications.

Cheers, Richard

[ November 28, 2002, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[Jack Carr]

What Richard says is correct. In a nutshell, the numerical superiority of the Soviets in the right places defeated the over-burdened, over-stretched Germans.

My suggestion to the original poster of this thread would be to play and or create battles that represent this in a more historical fashion and not play QB's that have 10 Panthers and 12 T-34's or 10 KV-1's and 15 Panzer MkIII's etc.

These types of scenarios will inevitably lead to threads not unlike this one.

- ALSO -

Stuka ... yeah they definitely helped. Overwhelming air superiority early in the campaign helped the Germans tremendously. Set up scenarios that depict this. Throw in a couple of Stuka's in an early war scenario. Late war scenarios should have the few German tanks harrased by Sturmovik tank busters.

As I had stated in the last thread, get a real feel for how the conflict really was otherwise play un-historical scenarios and find out how it was not. It seems a shame to have such great game from an accuracy perspective and then play scenarios where 10 Panthers beat the piss out of 15 T-34/76's. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Shades]

As the other entry stated regardng Stukas. In reality, the red army's air force was decimated early on and they luftwaffe helped soften up the front lines for the German Armor to penetrate. Russians forces were fairly disorganized and most of their armor were the outdated types with KV's being rare on most occasions. The russians were hoping only to delay the German's advance as much as possible by throwing tons of infantry and anything else they could muster. Of course in a quickbattle, this is not reflected as both sides are fairly equal and does not reflect the majority of the battles fought during the early period of Barbarrosa.

[Rickovich]

One thing I and my neighbor/nazi opponent have done(now in our second full 6/41 to 5/45 campaign is to use a quality restriction in selection.Germans in the early war must take crack or elite and russkys green or conscript and nothing over 50% rarity.I know it detracts from full use of the set but the battles do come out more closely to the timeline all other things being equal.In the end of the war the reverse is used and helps to offset some of the tech advantages.Just throwing this out there for the more imaginative to tweak

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

Stuka.

Certainly, but I'm thinking that if KV-1 and -2 are your worry (Col_Deadmarsh) then maybe by a bunch of the cheap strafe-only planes (Henschel w/ 20mm?) they should easily destroy KV's unless they also have ridiculous armor on top (not likely, but I dunno). The strafe-onlys are only like 65pts per plane (methinks) so you can afford at least two. IIRC Soviet AAA has a pretty high rarity, at least early war.

[Michael Emrys]

If you want to play battles that are reasonably accurate historically, one thing you have to do is use accurate OOBs. There just weren't a lot of KVs or T-34s floating around in '41. If you keep running into them in your battles, your opponent isn't getting into the spirit of the thing. The Reds should be fielding flocks of BTs and T-60s or even older stuff in the first campaign season along with armored cars thrown in to try to fill the gap.

As for mid to late war, if you want to get the flavor of it, the Germans shouldn't have many AFVs at all and what they have should be mostly Pz IVs or StuG IIIs with a sprinkling of Marders.

Use that as a rough guide and you will get more of the historic feeling.

Michael

[MrSpkr]

I am working on an early war scenario (historical) that should be fun. 'Klein Kargarlyk' is an attack by a reinforced German infantry battalion on a Soviet collective farm outside Kiev.

No armor, but still enjoyable.

Steve

[Andreas]

Also, set up battles in which the KVs and T34s have no ammo at all, or no AP ammo. Make the crews conscript, to reflect the lack of zeroed in tank guns, and at the beginning of the scenario, exit half your KVs off the board, to simulate the ones that broke down on the way to the battle.

But as Michael says, of the 20,000 or so tanks in the Soviet arsenal in 1941, only about 2000 were medium and heavy. Most of these had just been delivered to the troops in April/May, and lacked spare parts, trained crews, and ammunition.

[laxx]

Hi,

perhaps this thread from tips and tricks mite help, ignore the post 1941 scenrios in the first few messages.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001318

[JaegerMeister]

thanks for pointing that thread out Laxx, very interesting and informative.

Just last night i successfully pitted some little Pz38T's against T34/76s...i drew their attention by firing frontally at them from behind buildings in a village with a couple of panzers (dangerous but essential) then fast moved 3 38Ts from cover into the flank of the four T34s and let them have it at about 60-100m. The result was 2 of the 4 had multiple side turret, track and gun hits making them combat inneffective for no losses of my own!...to be continued.

[Ken Talley]

I have designed a couple of 41/42 scenarios. What I have discovered is the early war Russians are very, very difficult to work with on the offensive. The two man turrets effectively halt the Russian tanks in their tracks for approximately 45 seconds once they stop and engage. In addition, they are blind while engaged. When blind and halted, they are very, very vulnerable to flanking and tank hunter teams.

My standard tactics against any 2 man turret tank is to engage them with either infantry or shoot and scoot tanks. Anything to batten the hatches and halt them in place. Once engaged, I attempt those flank shots or move in the tank hunter teams.

What is really fun is playing the Russians in 41 or 42 meeting engagement. Trying to keep an attack coordinated and moving with Russian tanks against fast, agile German tanks constantly shifting positions is tough.

Try out "SS Strike" or "Breakout...Minsk,41" for a couple of fun early war scenarios on the scenario depot with plenty of clumsy two man turret tanks.

[Nidan1]

Manuever is the key in 1941 battles as Germans, keep moving, outflank Russian positions, but keep moving.

[jiggles]

Don't know about the Germans, but try the Italian tank destroyer thingy (can't remember their code number). They're pretty red hot against T34's. Just watch out for those pesky Russian ATRs.

[demoss]

It's very possible to defeat the Soviets in the early war, even when facing KVs. I've gotten a major victory in [CENSORED], taking out all the opposing heavies. I got one KV (KV-2) with a PaK 38 and the other (KV-1) with a couple demo charges (the PaK 38 was firing, but the pioniers beat them to it).

Yes, they both did some damage to me, but I got them in the end and still had tanks left.