Some thoughts on the new camera movement system…

[billcarey]

So the demo arrived on my computer at 5:00 A.M. the 1st. I have been greedily playing it and can't wait for the full version with the scenario editor! I piddled with making scenarios in CMBO, and cannot wait to begin with CMBB.

But:

I think that the new camera system is a dramatic step backwards from the old system. (I am discounting the interface buttons to scroll because they are a completely seperate interface from the edge-of-screen-system)

Here's why:

1. Ye Old System

The edge of the screen was divided into eight different interface sections.

Placing the mouse at the top of the screen moved the camera forward. Placing the mouse at the bottom of the screen moved the camera backward. A natural pairing.

Placing the mousse at the rightmost edge of the screen rotated to the right.

Placing the mousse at the leftmost edge of the screen rotated to the left.

Another natural pairing.

Placing the mouse in any one of the four corners would invoke both actions for top and side movement. Thus if the mouse was in the top left corner, the camera moved forward and rotated left. If the mouse was in the bottom right corner, the camera moved backwards and rotated right.

To translate left or right required the use of a modifier key.

Now, why is this good interface? Every possible command has a command that will do its opposite. If I move my camera too far forward, I can easily move it backward. If I turn-right-move-backward, I can move the mouse to the opposite side of the screen to undo that movement.

Now, with the new edge interface, the top edge of the screen behaves identically to the old CM system, while the bottom edge of the screen behaves like the old CM system with the modifier key pressed. This is most distressing. Because of this there is not way to undo a move-forward-rotate right, nor a way to undo a move-backward-translate-left. Instead of four pairs of converse commands, we now have two pairs of converse commands and four unpaired commands. This has (for me) made battlefield navigation much more difficult.

Possible solutions are:

1. Return to ye olde camera system. Simple, elegant, beautiful.

2. Keep the new camera system, but make the modifier key flip which side rotates and which side translates. A kludge.

3. Add more complexity to the system by further subdividing the sides of the screen into three regions, a top rotate, middle translate, and bottom rotate. Ok, but complexity should be avoided if possible.

Just my thoughts. The new tank model is beautiful in it's frustrating ability. I put two turns worth of 37mm shells into the side of a T-34 and all that happened was the tank panicked. Then a platoon hq destroyed it with a close assault. The excitement is back bigtime, and the Pz III is a sight to behold.

[ September 02, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: billcarey ]

[Old Dog]

I actually prefer the ability to slide sideways without the keyboard. This has made scrolling around the map easier for me. This may be because I rarely used the corners as you described, I usually have the pointer either on a side, top, or bottom.

Only about the bottom 1/4 of each side yields slide vs. rotate, so I can still do everything I used to do, plus slide without he keyboard now.

Still occasionally try to rotate and end up sliding, but it's becoming natural already.

Perhaps they'll add a toggle for old school scrollers?

- Old Dog

[billcarey]

Originally posted by Old Dog:

…

Only about the bottom 1/4 of each side yields slide vs. rotate, so I can still do everything I used to do, plus slide without he keyboard now.

…

Perhaps they'll add a toggle for old school scrollers?

- Old Dog

Aah! But you can't do everything you could! I haven't found a way to simultaneously move the camera backward and rotate it, which I sorely miss. A toggle would be really nice.

- Bill

[Sitting Duck]

FWIW - I prefer the new system with CM:BB. You did a nice analysis, though.

[ September 02, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Sitting Duck ]

[Kwazydog]

I must admit it took me a week or two to get used too, but I couldnt go back tot he CMBO style of mouse movement now. I think that once you guys get used to the differences you should actually find it quite a bit easier to use

Dan

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by billcarey:

Possible solutions are:

.

.

.

4.) Keep it as it is, you'll get used to it. A lot of people like it this way.

[Shatter]

Ya I find it a little different also, but it nothing that I can't learn to live with. \

Really now that I am getting used to it, I am liking it better.

[billcarey]

I'm sure I will get used to it, people can get used to all manner of badly done interface. That doesn't mean that badly done interface is as good as well done interface.

I have yet to hear an argument as to why the new system is better than the old.

The old system is a mirrored system, where every command has an easily available opposite and the use of the screen is consistent.

In the new interface, the top of the monitor behaves diffrently from the bottom, which is both confusing (why isn't the translate section at the top? or in the middle?) and inconsistent.

I'm getting used to the close control being next to the size controls is OS X.II windows. That sure doesn't mean that I like them being there...

[Maastrictian]

I strongly agree with billcarey. The new interface is simply less elegant than the old.

As others point out, it is very possible I will become used to it, but that does not change the fact that it is worse than the old interface (in the same way that you could get used to driving with out side mirrors, but it is definately worse than driving with them). I hope BTS will offer users the option to switch between the old style and the new style in the final version of the game, or in a patch.

--Chris

[Compassion]

FWIW, I agree that the new system is not to my liking, I prefer the CMBO system as I was ready to go with it on day one. I'm definately going to get the game and can see that it's a case of getting used to the new way... Like I said, I prefer he old way especially the ability to move & pan at the same time. Probably my most used movement... then again, as a fps player, I'm probably used to moving that way.

The thing that I really miss is the lack of backwards r's!

[aka_tom_w]

Edit:

My appologies to billcarey, perhaps I should have read his original post more carefully as I agree with all his three suggestions (Doh!)

Old Post:

How about something as simple as letting the Shift key modify the bottom part of the sreen so it does not shift side ways (this would be opposite the old way but a big improvement)

So far as I can tell the shift key does nothing as a modifier in the camera movement system.

Maybe a patch could add the shift key as a camera movement modifier so that the bottom half of the screen would be the way it was in CMBO when the shift key is depressed and the mouse moves to the bottom half to rotate the camera/map the way it use to.

Has this suggestion been posted yet?

(Sorry I just got back from being away for the long weekend).

-tom w

[ September 02, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[billcarey]

Tom,

Right now, the shift key does what it did in CMBO: it makes the whole monitor edge translate instead of rotate. Which adds another layer of complexity and inconsistency to the rules.

The old rules:

Sides of the Monitor Rotate.

Top and Bottom of the Monitor Translate.

Corners (the intersection of the two regions) do both.

The modifier key makes every instance of rotate become and instance of translate.

The new rules.

Top and Bottom of the Monitor Translate.

The Upper sides of the monitor rotate.

The Lower sides of the monitor translate.

The upper corners rotate and translate.

The lower corners translate and translate.

The modifier key makes the top part of the monitor sides translate now, and the bottom is unaffected.

I like the old interface.

The best solution would be to have the CMBO interface with a user defined preference to either translate or rotate. When the modifier key is pressed, it does the opposite of the preference.

So, if I set my move preference to "rotate", the shift key makes the edges translate. If i set my move preference to "translate", the shift key makes the edges rotate. Just like the CMBO interface, but a wee bit more customizable for those who are big on translation.

Also, I really like that the live weapons in a squad are show in the main interface. This has saved me much pressing of the enter key!

- Bill

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by billcarey:

Tom,

Right now, the shift key does what it did in CMBO: it makes the whole monitor edge translate instead of rotate.

- Bill

OK I see

My suggestion was for the Shift key to let the upper half translate instead of rotate and the Lower half ROTATE instead of Translate.

Seems like a minor tweak to me but the shift key should do SOMETHING to the bottom have of the screen, why not let it rotate when modified by the shift key? ( given the change in camera movement that has taken place I thought it would be in intuitive to have the Shift key modify the movement so the lower have the screen would rotate instead of translate with the shift key down while the mouse moves to the edge? :confused: )

Just a thought

-tom w

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I just want to know if there's a way to fix that bottom right-hand corner problem I (and some others) have. Namely, that the bottom right-hand corner is dead.

-Andrew

(G3 iMac, 288 mb RAM, Rage Pro)

[Madmatt]

Mirage its not dead on my screen (1280x968), are you by chance playing in 800x600? If so then IIRC the scrolling was removed in the right corner because testers were complaining that the screen was moving when all they wanted to do was click the GO button.

Madmatt

[aka_tom_w]

Edit:

My appologies to billcarey, perhaps I should have read his original post more carefully as I agree with all his three suggestions (Doh!)

Even More intuitive

How about this:

Upper third of the screen rotates

Middle THIRD of the screen translates (like the lower half now)

Lower third of the screen rotates (like old CMBO)

I like the translate camera move without the Shift key (but in CMBO I used the shift key ALL the time and thought that was good interface design with that modifier key) now in CMBB, but, I miss the ability to rotate on the lower half of the screen and there appears to be no modifier key to let me rotate instead of translate :confused:

oh well

GREAT DEMO looks GREAT!

(Plays great too, e.g. infantry hitting the deck and getting pinned while under fire works REALLY well !)

I played the Tutorial in the Demo and read the instructions to see if it was IDIOT PROOF enough. (I think it is almost completely idiot proof, anybody who knows how to read could figure out how to learn how to play this game with that Demo tutorial and the Instructions in that PDF, NICE WORK!)

-tom w

[ September 02, 2002, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Mirage its not dead on my screen (1280x968), are you by chance playing in 800x600? If so then IIRC the scrolling was removed in the right corner because testers were complaining that the screen was moving when all they wanted to do was click the GO button.

Ah....I guess that would be it then. Thanks.

-Andrew

[Sarge Saunders]

Respectfully regarding camera/mouse movement.

Biggest issue is that now I must pay attention to where my mouse is on the screen to differentiate bewteen roll and pan. It jerks me away from my immersion in the landscape and ensuing battle!

Obviously and if possible, A toggle for this behavior would make all parties happy.

-Sarge

[aka_tom_w]

More thoughts to follow....

[ September 02, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[kmead]

I like the new system, I never liked the key modifier and enjoy moving around the battlefield keyless. It takes a bit more finesse but its fine.

My only interface quibble is that I don't need the buttons for ceasefire and surrender as they are a very rarely used. I would have loved the space given over to a miniature map top view with units picked out as red and blue dots for each side.

[kgsan]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

Respectfully regarding camera/mouse movement.

Biggest issue is that now I must pay attention to where my mouse is on the screen to differentiate bewteen roll and pan. It jerks me away from my immersion in the landscape and ensuing battle!

Obviously and if possible, A toggle for this behavior would make all parties happy.

-Sarge

I have to agree with Sarge and the others on this one. Having to watch one's curser location breaks the immersion factor a bit. Of course I don't know how difficult it would be to make this a toggable option.

Regardless, I'd like to add my WOW!!! to the chorus and say thanks to BFC for what looks to be another phenomenal game. I really like the extreme FOW and the new suppression model feels a lot more accurate than the system in CMBO.

So when can we start throwing our money at y'all and make our pre-orders?

[Bastables]

I actully prefer the new camra control system. Reminds me of the superb Myth II and Myth III games.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by billcarey:

I have yet to hear an argument as to why the new system is better than the old.

I like scrolling side to side. I do not like using the keyboard. New system means i can scroll side to side. Old system I did not.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Maastrictian:

The new interface is simply less elegant than the old.

I disagree. The new system is far more elegant, and would hate to see the old system return

[aka_tom_w]

I have played with this rotate/translate/scroll thing now a little bit more in the demo.

I think I can get used to it.

There is some fidelity to the location of the boundary between rotate and translate. I say this because it is my opinion that the edge boundary for rotate is about the upper two thirds of the screen and its only about the lower third that is for the camera move to scroll or translate.

This is not as bad as I first thought because in CMBO you don't really gain anything with from the use the entire side of the screen for the rotate.

Here (in CMBB) the only thing about it, (as has been pointed out) is that you now have to be VERY mindful of where you place the curser on the edge of the screen for rotate or translate (scroll). This is not as bad as I first though it will jst take some getting used to be always be mindful of where on the edge of the screen you are moving the curser to.

So far I would say this issue "feels" like the biggest change to the interface.

-tom w