Are support crews going to have rifles/small arms?

[Chad Harrison]

I know it has been brought up a million times, but I dont know if we ever got an answer.

Will schreck/mortar/MG/ect. crews have a rifle or two to defend themselves? I know thats not their primary function, but when you mortar is overran or your MG is jammed, why not?

[John D Salt]

One particular place where small-arms should certainly be included as crew weapons is for the Vickers MMG in British service. I have never heard of this weapon being issued on any basis other than to MG battalions (one per division, which of shared around evenly gives an MMG coy per brigade, and, fairly obviously, a platoon per battalion). A Vickers MMG platoon consists of four sections, each of 10 men. This section is really just like an ordinary rifle section, except that the Bren is replaced by a Vickers. Most men in the section are armed with rifles.

All the best,

John.

[Mr. Johnson--]

I hope so, but it looks like BTS will probably make crews like they did in CMBO. But we could make a Stalingrad, after the encirclement scenario. A make platoons with poor physical condition and conscript training represent second and third echolon troops. Hastyly gathered up and given weapons.

[Stixx]

Rememeber the CC days.

Your AT gun or Mortar gets taken out so you move your men up to the front to use there Carbines.

They had more firepower than a regular infantry squad!

I'll trust BTS to get it right.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stixx:

Rememeber the CC days.

Your AT gun or Mortar gets taken out so you move your men up to the front to use there Carbines.

They had more firepower than a regular infantry squad!

I'll trust BTS to get it right.<hr></blockquote>

Thats the only computer game that I have seen model that. Those guys were better off just using their rifles!

I know there are ways that we could represent it in other ways (as mentioned above), I just wanted to know if BTS had that on their list of things to include this time around.

From the looks of it, and the sounds of it, its a perfect game as it is! So no complaints from me! Keep up the good work BTS!

Chad Harrison

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by John D Salt:

One particular place where small-arms should certainly be included as crew weapons is for the Vickers MMG in British service. I have never heard of this weapon being issued on any basis other than to MG battalions (one per division, which of shared around evenly gives an MMG coy per brigade, and, fairly obviously, a platoon per battalion). A Vickers MMG platoon consists of four sections, each of 10 men. This section is really just like an ordinary rifle section, except that the Bren is replaced by a Vickers. Most men in the section are armed with rifles.

All the best,

John.<hr></blockquote>

John, assuming that you are the John Salt, author of documents like 'Britorg' etc, I am very glad you found your way here. I used your stuff extensively in creating scenarios for CMBO - really helpful. Hope you finished that PhD successfully.

All the best,

Andreas

[wes hays]

I was in a 81mm mortar platoon, and we were issued rifles. Our 60mm mortar squads in the line units were issued side arms. Of course, this is modern army, but it still might be useful (or useless).

[Bullethead]

In Zaloga's Red Army Handbook, you can see that the main duty of some members of Russian HMG crews was to fire their personal weapons in close defense of the HMG. They had nothing to do with shooting the MG itself, although I'm sure they helped hump ammo. These guys were called "covering riflemen".

Under some of the emergency TO&Es of the dark days of 1941, they were deleted from the crews. So basically, the crew size of Russian HMGs fluctuated during the war. When it was small, it was just the guys needed to shoot the MG. When it was larger, it included guys with rifles to defend the MG.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wes hays:

I was in a 81mm mortar platoon, and we were issued rifles. Our 60mm mortar squads in the line units were issued side arms. Of course, this is modern army, but it still might be useful (or useless).<hr></blockquote>

Did you stack your weapons, or even leave them in the carrier/truck/track/vehicle while firing? Or did you keep them slung and ready to go while using the mortar?

[Simon Fox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by John D Salt:

One particular place where small-arms should certainly be included as crew weapons is for the Vickers MMG in British service. I have never heard of this weapon being issued on any basis other than to MG battalions (one per division, which of shared around evenly gives an MMG coy per brigade, and, fairly obviously, a platoon per battalion). A Vickers MMG platoon consists of four sections, each of 10 men. This section is really just like an ordinary rifle section, except that the Bren is replaced by a Vickers. Most men in the section are armed with rifles.

All the best,

John.<hr></blockquote>Firstly, in addition to the MMG Bn the Vickers was issued to the MMG platoons of the British motor battalion as well to the MG Bn and they only had 1 Ofr and 28 ORs on the books so the 10 man "section" goes out the window there.

Secondly, in North Africa a number of divisions retained or reverted to the prewar Inf Bn organisation which included a MMG platoon in the support company.

Finally, it would be wrong to view the Commonwealth MMG section as a infantry section with a Vickers swapped in because it wasn't. For a start the numbers don't add up to 4 sections of 10 blokes. A MMG Platoon in an MMG Bn comprised 1 Ofr and 39 OR organised into 2 sections each with 2 MMGs. Usually commanded by an Lt with a Plt Sgt as his 2i/c and 2 section commanders. In WWII a Vickers MMG was served by 5 gun numbers, that's a crew of 5 which is about the minimum required to lug it and a reasonable amount of ammunition around. So what about all those other bods? Well it's hard to be precise but the MMG platoon was a fully motorised/mechanized unit with it's own allotment of carriers and other M/T which was often expected to operate semi-independantly attached to other formations so I would suggest that those other blokes would have plenty to keep them occupied.

Certainly a number of them may have been around the Vickers crews when in action but AFAIK the number specifically assigned to each gun in WW2 was 5 and certainly not 10.

[Triumvir]

Good _Lord_ it is John Salt (check his profile and his posting style.) I think that word of CM must have spread to s.m.m. Next up: the clash of the super-grogs... for while I've never seen Jason's name pop up on s.m.m he is certainly quite prolific on other groups.

[Runyan99]

I read "In Deadly Combat" by Biedermann, who served on a PaK crew during Barbarossa. They not only had rifles and SMGs, they also had a light MG-34 in their Chenilette tractor, and when the PaK was set up, one guy was firing that machinegun also. So when the PaK was up and firing, they also had the support of 1 MG-34, a couple of rifles, and an SMG or two. I imagine this was pretty common practice.

BTS knows that weapons crews had small arms. They have the TO&Es. I imagine that not including them is a limitation of the current CM engine. If not, I would like to see it included in CMBB, or at the very least with the rewrite at CMII.

Consider this egregious example from my early days of playing CM PBEM:

My bazooka team, carefully hidden, got a shot off at my opponent's Panther as it drove by their position, and knocked the Panther out. The crew then baled out of the Panther, and sought cover in the nearby house that my bazooka crew was in. My bazooka crew was unable to defend itself from the Panther crew (having no rifles or pistols) and were killed by the panzer crew!

[Ex Bellator]

Lots of good points and suggestions here, did BTS ever comment on the likelyhood of including this in CMBB?

[Wesreidau]

I think Biedermann's experience may have a lot to do with scrounging kit. But then again, that may have been typical among 'vet' crews who have been on a battlefield or two.

Peter

[IPA]

As Simon stated. 5 men per gun. No.s 1 and 2 on gun, no.s 3,4,5 ammo supply. The ammo carriers would be armed with rifles meant for localised defence. MMG Platoons would be used as conventional infantry only as an absolute last resort.

Airborne MMG Platoons were not drawn from a Divisional MMG Battalion but were organic to the Infantry Battalion Support Coys(1 Pl Per Parachute Bn and 2 Per Airlanding Bn) TO&E is as follows.

Total 25 Men, in two sections, two guns per section. Plus 2 Jeeps (with trailers)and Drivers attached from HQ company.

Platoon Commander 1

Platoon Runner 1

Platoon Sergeant 1

Section Leaders 2

ORs 20.

For what it's worth.

Peter

[wes hays]

Dorosh - It was Light Infantry, and when we set up our firing positions, we had our rifles within reach. In the game, I would think that the 60mm would have about the same firepower as the company commanders, since they only carried sidearms, consisting of 9mm pistols. We were more heavily armed than that, each of us carrying an M16. If in the game, the mortar crew didn't panic, they would be able to return fire. Of course, only veteran or crack troops would probably be able to respond like this.

[WWB]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Runyan99:

I read "In Deadly Combat" by Biedermann, who served on a PaK crew during Barbarossa. They not only had rifles and SMGs, they also had a light MG-34 in their Chenilette tractor, and when the PaK was set up, one guy was firing that machinegun also. So when the PaK was up and firing, they also had the support of 1 MG-34, a couple of rifles, and an SMG or two. I imagine this was pretty common practice.

BTS knows that weapons crews had small arms. They have the TO&Es. I imagine that not including them is a limitation of the current CM engine. If not, I would like to see it included in CMBB, or at the very least with the rewrite at CMII.

Consider this egregious example from my early days of playing CM PBEM:

My bazooka team, carefully hidden, got a shot off at my opponent's Panther as it drove by their position, and knocked the Panther out. The crew then baled out of the Panther, and sought cover in the nearby house that my bazooka crew was in. My bazooka crew was unable to defend itself from the Panther crew (having no rifles or pistols) and were killed by the panzer crew!<hr></blockquote>

If you notice in CMBO, the units that come with a PAK platoon, it includes in LMG42 for each ATG. I usually buy them one when I make scenarios as well.

WWB

[Madmatt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

Lots of good points and suggestions here, did BTS ever comment on the likelyhood of including this in CMBB?<hr></blockquote>

Why no we haven't. Perhaps we should though eh? Would you like that? Huh? Would ya? Okay.

YES

Crews now have a (minimal) small-arms short-range self-defense capability!

The TACAI will take care of this for you, so you can't give them your own small arms targeting orders and as we say above it's a MINIMAL self defense ability but it's better than nothing.

This capability has been extended to ALL crewed units and teams (note: MG teams don't get secondary small arms they got that nice big MG to keep them warm afterall). That's PaK crews, Mortar crews, FO's, Vlad and his Holy Avenger Flamethrower (although he would probably be more prone to zap the boogies with his FT), Dieter and his trusty 'Shreck, the works!

Bailed vehicle crews still have their pistols, as before, of course.

This self defense range is pretty limited (maximum of 100 meters or so) and the firepower rating is very small, probably less than the FP rating of single rifle per man and their ROF is much much slower than a dedicated rifleman.

It's a purely self defense mechanism, don't expect miracles, but it does give them a little bite.

Madmatt

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Madmatt ]</p>

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PeterNZer:

I think Biedermann's experience may have a lot to do with scrounging kit. But then again, that may have been typical among 'vet' crews who have been on a battlefield or two.

Peter<hr></blockquote>

No, I'm pretty sure its a TO&E/WE thing. The same applies to the CW - they should be able to obtain LMG teams for the same purpose. This was brought up a while ago. However since the Bren was clearly such a laughable, worthless piece of poos, and the Brits so completly incompetent that they needed the US to hold their hand from Dunkirk onwards, there is no loss in not having them, and no merit in proposing them for CM in any incarnation. (excluding CMBB of course. That would be silly)

For all you intelligent foreigners who may have missed it: The above post included a modicum of sarcasm. Apologies to Mattias.

Regards

JonS

[Triumvir]

I rather think that an intelligent foreigner would _not_ have missed it thus rendering your disclaimer rather irrelevant.

[Juju]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Why no we haven't. Perhaps we should though eh? Would you like that? Huh? Would ya? Okay.

YES

Crews now have a (minimal) small-arms short-range self-defense capability!

<hr></blockquote>

A bone, a bone! Look everyone, His Baldness threw a bone. And a yummy one too! Praise be.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

Firstly, in addition to the MMG Bn the Vickers was issued to the MMG platoons of the British motor battalion as well to the MG Bn and they only had 1 Ofr and 28 ORs on the books so the 10 man "section" goes out the window there.

Secondly, in North Africa a number of divisions retained or reverted to the prewar Inf Bn organisation which included a MMG platoon in the support company.

Finally, it would be wrong to view the Commonwealth MMG section as a infantry section with a Vickers swapped in because it wasn't. For a start the numbers don't add up to 4 sections of 10 blokes. A MMG Platoon in an MMG Bn comprised 1 Ofr and 39 OR organised into 2 sections each with 2 MMGs. Usually commanded by an Lt with a Plt Sgt as his 2i/c and 2 section commanders. In WWII a Vickers MMG was served by 5 gun numbers, that's a crew of 5 which is about the minimum required to lug it and a reasonable amount of ammunition around. So what about all those other bods? Well it's hard to be precise but the MMG platoon was a fully motorised/mechanized unit with it's own allotment of carriers and other M/T which was often expected to operate semi-independantly attached to other formations so I would suggest that those other blokes would have plenty to keep them occupied.

Certainly a number of them may have been around the Vickers crews when in action but AFAIK the number specifically assigned to each gun in WW2 was 5 and certainly not 10.<hr></blockquote>

How would the MG Company of an armoured Division be organized, Simon - or are these the MMG platoons you refer to - parcelled out to the Motor battalion?

[aka_tom_w]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Why no we haven't. Perhaps we should though eh? Would you like that? Huh? Would ya? Okay.

YES

Crews now have a (minimal) small-arms short-range self-defense capability!

The TACAI will take care of this for you, so you can't give them your own small arms targeting orders and as we say above it's a MINIMAL self defense ability but it's better than nothing.

This capability has been extended to ALL crewed units and teams (note: MG teams don't get secondary small arms they got that nice big MG to keep them warm afterall). That's PaK crews, Mortar crews, FO's, Vlad and his Holy Avenger Flamethrower (although he would probably be more prone to zap the boogies with his FT), Dieter and his trusty 'Shreck, the works!

Bailed vehicle crews still have their pistols, as before, of course.

This self defense range is pretty limited (maximum of 100 meters or so) and the firepower rating is very small, probably less than the FP rating of single rifle per man and their ROF is much much slower than a dedicated rifleman.

It's a purely self defense mechanism, don't expect miracles, but it does give them a little bite.

Madmatt

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Madmatt ]<hr></blockquote>

OK!

That sounds helpful and realistic

AND not open to "gamey" exploitation!

Thanks for the update....

sounds like a VERY reasonable solution

-tom w

[Simon Fox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How would the MG Company of an armoured Division be organized, Simon - or are these the MMG platoons you refer to - parcelled out to the Motor battalion?<hr></blockquote>Oh yeah, forgot about that one. That's another non-MG Bn Vickers armed unit. There was an independant MG Company as part of the Infantry Brigade in the armoured divisions. I imagine they were organised pretty much similar to a MG company from a MG Bn, ie 3 MG platoons and later a heavy mortar platoon, but with additional cross attachments. Possibly it wouldn't have been much bigger than a standard MG Co since that already had plenty of "fat" in it for independant operation (independant meaning away from the Bn HQ not on it's own ).

Anyway the MG platoons in the Motor Bn were entirely seperate from the MG Co. The motor Bn was part of the armoured brigade having it's own Vickers and the MG Co part of the Inf Brigade.

The Motor Bn was the most powerful infantry unit fielded by the Commonwealth forces in terms of organic support and of course is impossible to simulate in CMBO

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Why no we haven't. Perhaps we should though eh? Would you like that? Huh? Would ya? Okay.

YES

Crews now have a (minimal) small-arms short-range self-defense capability!

The TACAI will take care of this for you, so you can't give them your own small arms targeting orders and as we say above it's a MINIMAL self defense ability but it's better than nothing.

This capability has been extended to ALL crewed units and teams (note: MG teams don't get secondary small arms they got that nice big MG to keep them warm afterall). That's PaK crews, Mortar crews, FO's, Vlad and his Holy Avenger Flamethrower (although he would probably be more prone to zap the boogies with his FT), Dieter and his trusty 'Shreck, the works!

Bailed vehicle crews still have their pistols, as before, of course.

This self defense range is pretty limited (maximum of 100 meters or so) and the firepower rating is very small, probably less than the FP rating of single rifle per man and their ROF is much much slower than a dedicated rifleman.

It's a purely self defense mechanism, don't expect miracles, but it does give them a little bite.

Madmatt

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Madmatt ]<hr></blockquote>

WoW! Thanks for the tidbit there Matt. Sounds good to me, and I think thats what we were looking for: just something to defend yourself with.

Keep up the good work!

Chad