Shoot and Scoot my thoughts

[CPT T]

After using this command in several scenerios I am curious as to what the design intent was? I have been using the command to try and move to firing positions on known targets. Especially usefull if the firing vehicle has the weaker armor and dares not stay in range/view for a long time. Anyone else using it in such a manner. I do realize that it can be used to make a short halt, fire and continue the movement order; does anyone use it for this?

Upon clicking on the Q button it asks you to select a firing position. Left clicking on a location gives you a fast move command. I think this move should be a hunt move.

If the command is used as I invision it's use, then a vehicle should be moving slowly into a firing position the gunner seeking targets a hull down position or any cover afforded by the terrain. The hunt command at the beggining of the move allows the unit to find a hull down position in relation to the first target aquired. It also relieves me of the tedious task of trying to find that same hull down firing position.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by CPT T:

Anyone else using it in such a manner[?]

I have, extensively, in "Hornets Nest".

I do realize that it can be used to make a short halt, fire and continue the movement order; does anyone use it for this?

You can't. The Scoot part of the order is always done in reverse.

Upon clicking on the Q button it asks you to select a firing position. Left clicking on a location gives you a fast move command. I think this move should be a hunt move.

Well, that would be nice.

The command I was hoping for would allow you to put your vehicle in an ambush position in some kind of concealment. When a target comes along, your guy would fire a round or two and then withdraw out of LOS. This would have the advantage that your vehicle would not be moving and therefore harder to spot. You could get off two or possibly several rounds, depending on your rate of fire, before the enemy could react. My impression is that is how it was done historically.

Michael

[rune]

Umm...if you think it should be a hunt command, then plot a hunt command and a reverse. This is NOT what a shoot and scoot is. Think Tank destroyer, rushes forward, takes a quick shot, then gets out of the way before counter-fire. A hit and run type deal.

Rune

[tools4fools]

Remember that if you use hunt and reverse it will stop upon enemy contact and shoot it out with the enemy. Only after the enemy is destroyed it will continue to fullfill its orders...which might be never...

That's why we got shoot and scoot: drive into a firing position, shoot, and move back/on.

If you put the last waypoint behind your tank it will automatically reverse, if you want to move forward into next cover it will move forward.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by tools4fools:

Remember that if you use hunt and reverse it will stop upon enemy contact and shoot it out with the enemy. Only after the enemy is destroyed it will continue to fullfill its orders...which might be never...

That's why we got shoot and scoot: drive into a firing position, shoot, and move back/on.

If you put the last waypoint behind your tank it will automatically reverse, if you want to move forward into next cover it will move forward.

Sounds like a GREAT feature for the M18's and M10's (US TD's) in CMBO.

I do not know what FAST and light tanks the German's and Russian's had on the Eastern Front (don't have the game yet) so if any one would like to comment perhaps those with experience that have the game might suggest which tanks in CMBB are best suited to take advantage of this new order (shoot and scoot)

Thanks

-tom w

[jwxspoon]

Just talking with Harv about his experiences with the "Hornet's Nest" senario.

-

-

-

-

-

-

SPOILERS!!!!

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Harv is at T20 already and has KO'd over 10 russian tanks with the loss of a single Hornet. Needless to say, he has this one won, simply by proper use of Shoot n Scoot and a bit of luck.

jw

[ October 02, 2002, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]

[MikeyD]

Which tanks are best suited for shoot-and-scoot? ALLL of them!

Well, I've found some of the slowest vehicles (Churchill III for instance) has some difficulty getting back to scoot position in time to avoid being targetted, but otherwise its a universally useful command. Best use, I suppose, would be light vehicles vs bigger slow-turret vehicles. Get a shot in and escape before the opponent's turret slews around.

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />qb]

Sounds like a GREAT feature for the M18's and M10's (US TD's) in CMBO.

I do not know what FAST and light tanks the German's and Russian's had on the Eastern Front (don't have the game yet) so if any one would like to comment perhaps those with experience that have the game might suggest which tanks in CMBB are best suited to take advantage of this new order (shoot and scoot)

Thanks

-tom w</font>

[CPT T]

Remember that if you use hunt and reverse it will stop upon enemy contact and shoot it out with the enemy

That is exactly why the hunt command does not work well in this situation. My choice of the hunt command may not have been the best because of the way it is implemented in the game. It was the closest command I could think of though.

A similiar command that incorporates the characteristics of hunt, seeking hull down or cover, but allowing you to disengage and move to mask your vehicle is what I am driving at.

Again, I find it fustrating trying to micro manage my vehicles into a hull down firing position, when I think the game should do it for you. What trained tank crew moving to engage a target over a ridge or hill, does not seek a hull down position. None that I have ever commanded or been a part of in real life.

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by CPT T:

Well, the game is not doing it for you in this case. You have to read the terrain, find the hull down shooting position and place the "fire" waypoint exactly there. I do not have problems usually in finding hull down positions, so I don't need the game doing it for me. Hhhhm, maybe start looking closer at those maps to find those HD positions easier?

What tanks you commanded?

[CPT T]

M60A1/3 for a short time (dating myself here) and Bradly fighting vehicles.

[Shosties]

I'm not sure if this is just the demo or if this happens in full-up CMBB, but I've seen a tendency for tanks given the hull-down command to reverse into full defilade if they take a significant amount of fire after they reach position. Anybody else notice this?

[demoss]

Shoot-and-scoot also works pretty well for vehicles with a long reload time (IS-2, for example).

[Sabrewolf]

Do not use shoot and scoot with non-turreted tank especially when they are 90 degrees facing the target. Should be fine is you are using it to pop onto the top of the hill and then pull back.

[Harv]

Well, just finished Hornet's Nest, and as Jeff mentioned I won with exactly 0 (zero) casualties and the one Hornet destroyed.

Shoot n Scoot works exactly as advertised. I was able to S&S twice in a turn on occasion, which wouldn't have been possible if the forward move command was any slower than "fast" so I'd say this is the correct speed to use.

As far as finding hull down goes, with a little practice (and luck) I was able to find the sweet spot the majority of the time quite easily.

YMMV of course, but I am very impressed with this.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

The command I was hoping for would allow you to put your vehicle in an ambush position in some kind of concealment. When a target comes along, your guy would fire a round or two and then withdraw out of LOS. This would have the advantage that your vehicle would not be moving and therefore harder to spot. You could get off two or possibly several rounds, depending on your rate of fire, before the enemy could react. My impression is that is how it was done historically.

Michael

I agree with this as I thought this was what was being talked about with shoot and scoot before the disucssion moved to the beta forum. Somewhere along the line a movment piece was introduced, and I do not fined the value of it yet. I could reasonably duplicate the current shoot n' scoot by using the delay setting in conjunction with move and a reverse spanning two turns if you want a bit longer delay.

I also thought the shoot n' scoot was to be available to infantry in ambush along these same lines.

[Chad Harrison]

The only change I would like to see with the shoot and scoot command is being able to set the time that they stay still before scooting. Everytime I use it, they turn to the target once they shoot and before they even fire the first shot, they are already reversing. I have not used it a lot (same with 'hull down' command) because it has not worked for me too well.

Chad

[Michael Emrys]

I've found it really helpful to set up an S&S so that when the vehicle reaches the firing point it is pointing pretty close to where the expected target is located. That way, minimum time is wasted spotting and drawing a bead.

Michael

[zukkov]

also, you can use it in combo with a covered armor arc so the turret is pointing in the right direction when your tank gets to the shoot part..

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by zukkov:

also, you can use it in combo with a covered armor arc so the turret is pointing in the right direction when your tank gets to the shoot part..

Ah, yes. Good thought!

Michael

[Apache]

Must admit I like S&S. I used to use hunt/reverse a lot in CMBO but found the AFV would often pull back too quick to acquire a target. Once in a while I would get partially flanked and an unspotted AFV (had I not got infantry far enough forward for whatever reason) would hit my hunting AFV in the side and KO it. I much prefer S&S which achieves the result quicker (with less key stokes too). I don't have a problem with the HD side either, while I accept crews will try to go HD as much as possible I'm not sure if HD would be the overriding factor they consider if using S&S (like I said despite the fact that I'm sure they would always try for as best as possible). My opinion FWIW.

[ October 03, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

Everytime I use it, they turn to the target once they shoot and before they even fire the first shot, they are already reversing. I have not used it a lot (same with 'hull down' command) because it has not worked for me too well.

Chad

Did you change movement speed of the s&s order? If you click on the final waypoint and change the speed then the "fire" comment on the previous waypoint will disappear...and the tank will not fire anymore.

Just put first way point where you want the tank to stop, then put the final one where the tank should go afterwards. Do not care "reverse" or "fast forward" for the final movement - the AI will do it for you.

I really like the command especially since the tank always shoots at the designated waypoint once. Bear in mind that with a tank with a slow reload time this stop might take real long. IS-2 fires while on the move towards the "fire" waypoint. 5 seconds later IS-2 arrives at firning stop. And reloads. Reloads. Reloads. Until it's ready to shoot again. Then it will fire and then start moving again. IF it's still alive by then of course.

[Michael Emrys]

I thought the pause was measured in seconds, not shots. :confused: If not, then it should be. Ideally, the pause should be user-definable.

But I still want a command that would allow you to fire from rest and then withdraw.

Michael

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I thought the pause was measured in seconds, not shots. :confused: If not, then it should be. Ideally, the pause should be user-definable.

But I still want a command that would allow you to fire from rest and then withdraw.

Michael

Michael,

It seems to me very much that the tank stops, shoots once and moves on. Therefore the stop can be short (if gun is ready) or long (if still reloading). "Firing" stop and not a "Pause" between two movements.

What you mention to have a user definable stop and a "shoot and retreat" command would be great indeed. Wait in ambush position, fire two shots and then get out of there.

Marcus

****

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tools4fools:

It seems to me very much that the tank stops, shoots once and moves on. Therefore the stop can be short (if gun is ready) or long (if still reloading).

It could be that how many shots are gotten off may depend on several variables including ROF of main gun, crew experience, etc. I am speculating here as I don't have anything like enough experience to say more at this time. I did notice that one of my Hornets got off two shots in my last game, which surprised me.

Michael