Magic Cat Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Hi All, I know this subject has been discussed before but will Patch 1.01 improve this annoyance? Thinking back to my Army daze. Which was quite a while ago....we would low crawl and we would high crawl but I don't ever remember getting tired doing that. In fact you are laying down and can rest anytime you want! Sneaking should have very limited affect towards becoming tired. What is the reasoning behind the extreme "exhausting" from sneaking? Magic Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I've low-crawled fit squads a hundred meters under fire and they are not exhausted. This is virtually superhuman endurance in my opinion. Now heavy weapon teams on the other hand get exhausted right away and with good reason. Can you imagine low-crawling 30 meters under fire lugging 1500 rounds and HMG+tripod+barrels? How about a 82mm mortar+baseplate and 25 rounds, hehe. The problem where HW teams get routed or broken and crawling-to-exhaustion arises because in CM HMG crews can't abandon their heavy equipment, which a HMG team certainly would if they were routed or broken and trying to escape. It'll be nice to see that addressed in a future CM. Then we will get to hear people whine about teams abandoning their heavy weapons too soon...or not soon enough...or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Cat Posted November 6, 2002 Author Share Posted November 6, 2002 I tried low crawling a LMG some 20-30 meters and they were exhausted before they got to their objective! This does not seem realistic. Low crawling is not an exhausting exercise! As for heavy weapons they would be dragged not carried and this would lesson the load. Now if they were high-crawling fast that could be a little more tiring, But they are sneaking (low crawling). Has Matt said anything about this issue being addressed in the first patch? Or has is this issue a dead horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porajkl Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Yes, for now the sneak command is practically unusable. I can't remember when I used it last time. Good remarks from all people above! I hope BTS will fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Originally posted by Renaud: The problem where HW teams get routed or broken and crawling-to-exhaustion arises because in CM HMG crews can't abandon their heavy equipment, which a HMG team certainly would if they were routed or broken and trying to escape. It'll be nice to see that addressed in a future CM. Then we will get to hear people whine about teams abandoning their heavy weapons too soon...or not soon enough...or something.Yeah, but when they become unbroken you can't get the weapons back! So, I'd rather have them drag their weapons around even if it is unrealistic. Not being able to re-crew weapons is unrealistic too (and worse for game play.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I've started giving squads with long sneak orders a pause every turn. The pause happens at the start of the turn, and gives them a bit of a break every minute to get their breath back. I usually go with 20 or 30 seconds of pause, or if they are starting to tire crank it up to 40 or 50 seconds. It takes them ages to get anywhere, of course, but thems the breaks. The only problem with this method is that if they spot an enemy while paused they will engage it, rather spoiling the point of sneaking in the first place ... Although ... giving them a small covered arc should prevent that. Hmm, have to try that out next time. Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by JonS: I've started giving squads with long sneak orders a pause every turn. The pause happens at the start of the turn, and gives them a bit of a break every minute to get their breath back. I usually go with 20 or 30 seconds of pause, or if they are starting to tire crank it up to 40 or 50 seconds.Yep. I've done that too. Also did it in BO when I would have squads running across open terrain. I'd never have them run more than 100 meters, then lie down in a swale or behind a hummock in the ground so they would be out of LOS/LOF and take a breather. I've given them up to a full turn plus whatever was left over from their last turn and whatever command pause was tacked onto their next turn. I had well-rested troops. The only problem with this method is that if they spot an enemy while paused they will engage it, rather spoiling the point of sneaking in the first place ...Give them a hide order. Not only prevents them from giving away their position by firing, but keeps their heads down and makes them less likely to be spotted in general. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 not shure how many have done it, i have actually *crawled* under the barb wire with rotten meat to simulate a situation, this was just a puny 10 meter pit but i sweated profusely, complete with full battle order (web, helmet, rifle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 I spent 8 years in the Army as a combat medic and I have to say that my experience was that low-crawling in full gear with even an M-16 was very tiring. I was in great shape then and it exhausted everyone involved. I'm talking crawling on your belly with your elbows (ouch) holding your rifle out front OR the other way with your forearms and the M-16 strap between thumb and forefinger (You x-service men out there know what I'm talking about it's hard to describe in writing). It's just exhausting after about 30 meters, especially if you are under fire and/or the terrain is real rough or muddy, etc. I think it's very realistic that troops given this command are slow regardless of what they carry. Just my opinion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 In CMBB, the autosneaking and exhaustion problem only applies to heavy weapons. Squads and the like will, on panic, run parts of the way to cover and hence not cross all the way in sneak. Thats usually fine, as in realistic. Heavy wepaons however will crawl everything and hence surely get so exhausted to be useless for half a normal game, and there is where the realism ends. This is bad game mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 I agree with Redwolf. There comes a point where you have to sacrafice realism for good gameplay. This is one of those times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 My hope is that in the engine re-write re-crewing undamaged weapons becomes possible and that it becomes allowable to crews to 'bail' from their weapon if caught in a panicy situation. THen when things stabilize, they are allowed to go back and grab the MG, mortar, whatever. Until then I am satisfied to play with the current system. To allow these guys to either crawl for an unlimited distance or go to CMBO type morale system for HW units would lead to CMBO type abuses with these HW's advancing under fire with no support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Compassion: Until then I am satisfied to play with the current system. To allow these guys to either crawl for an unlimited distance or go to CMBO type morale system for HW units would lead to CMBO type abuses with these HW's advancing under fire with no support.Who asked for CMBO-like supermen? Instead of having them sneak and auto-exhaust you can make them stop after tiring. Or you can make them not fall below tired. The way it is it is asking for gameyness on the part of the opponent, he can reliably take the heavy weapons out of the game by giving them sporadic fire. Harmless amounts of fire with very low ammo cost is sufficient to make heavy eapons exhausted to a degree that will disable them for half of the game. Of course BFC also did not document which HQ bonus might help with getting exhausted men fit again, adding to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: Heavy wepaons however will crawl everything and hence surely get so exhausted to be useless for half a normal game, and there is where the realism ends. This is bad game mechanics.I agree. However I understand that it was something outside the scope of the original game design, so I accept it. Rather than 'bad' game mechanics it's simply a spot for future improvement that had to be left out of the original design. I believe the solution is to allow panicked, routing or broken HW teams to abandon their weapons. In conjunction with this there should be the possibility, once rallied, of recrewing the abandoned weapon (presumably marked by a model or graphic). These were both situations that could have happened in reality, and at the same time would add a challenging and exciting element to gameplay. Ren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercury Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 But if its only heavy weapons teams that get exhausted so fast why does it also happen to artillery observers.....? Surely they aren't carrying the whole battery around in their pockets? I tried to get three Red artillery observers to move through a wood this way and they were tired and exhausted so fast it just didn't seem right, especially as my infantry squads were doing the same thing and happily overtaking them, leaving them way behind in the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Forget about CM3 which isn't coming out until at least 2 years from now. I'm only concerned with CMBB and this needs a fix now. Heavy weapon units shouldn't go into crawl mode with that type of equipment. They should instead try to "move" away with a greater chance of sustaining casualties than their infantry squads counterparts who can sneak (crawl) away with less gear. This is the only way to prevent gaminess on the part of the opposition who would normally try to specifically target Heavy Weapons units with the gamey plan to eliminate them due to a weakness in the gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Originally posted by Mercury: But if its only heavy weapons teams that get exhausted so fast why does it also happen to artillery observers.....? Surely they aren't carrying the whole battery around in their pockets? Is that an 8" howitzer in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me Lieutenant... Radios, or alternatively wire drums would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Originally posted by Mercury: But if its only heavy weapons teams that get exhausted so fast why does it also happen to artillery observers.....? Surely they aren't carrying the whole battery around in their pockets? They carry a heavy radio, in the better case. They are heavy weapon class loaded in the CMBB sense. And don't get me started on the wire FOs who cannot abandon their wire even after the ammo is shot off but instead crawl back and lay the wire back to their lines, only to get auto-exhausted and never make it near the map edge. Since they urgently need to lay their wire back to their own lines they refuse any offer for ride on a vehicle. Anybody here want to tell me that is realistic? I don't want the wire FOs to be able to abandon their equipment or something fancy. Just stop this stupid forced-to-sneak and auto-exhaustion business for slow units. It serves no realism or gameplay purpose when done bejond tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobnickbob Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 wasn’t the sneak command in CMBO a slow and careful ! move .. didn’t ware one out just made them a bit slower and a bit harder to detect.... What was wrong with that??? bnickb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Originally posted by bobnickbob: wasn’t the sneak command in CMBO a slow and careful ! move .. didn’t ware one out just made them a bit slower and a bit harder to detect.... What was wrong with that???Units would keep moving right past spotted enemy units, which would then shoot them in the back. The Sneak order in BO was replaced with the Move to Contact order in BB. It is the Crawl order in BO which was replaced with the Sneak order in BB. Confused yet? Michael [ November 08, 2002, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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