Sharpshooters as recon units -- Gamey or Not?

[Los]

I've found sharpshooters to be eminently more useful as OPs or scouts than any actual damage they cause. When designing scenartios I will add a few as scouts but it's important that you let the player know that in the breifing, else he'll just piss them away to no gain as scouts (He's free to do that of course but a little guidance normally goes along way in a scenario breifing.) Cheers...

Los

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader:

I personally feel the sniper ammo load out is WAY to low - he could carry ten times that and stil not rattle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

200 rounds of 7.92mm? That's mighty heavy, son.

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

FWIW, in the US Marines, the "sharpshooters" are officially called Scout Snipers. They are intended not only to pop people but also find and report things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for WWII Marines in the Pacific, the training to be a "Scout Sniper" usually consisted of an NCO handing them a scoped Springfield 1903 (that they'd never even SEEN before) and telling them to "go out there and do it".

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...training to be a "Scout Sniper" usually consisted of an NCO handing them a scoped Springfield 1903 (that they'd never even SEEN before) and telling them to "go out there and do it".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, but those were U.S. Marines. That would be enough to qualify as elite in just about any other force.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 07-04-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

IIRC correctly from relatively ancient conversations on this Forum (where's the searchonauts when you need them?) the sharpshooters are not strictly meant to represent highly trained snipers.

Ok here we go: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000110.html

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000921.html

On the subject of ammo loads/points:

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek I say: does this mean that German HMG teams only carry 95 rounds of ammo?

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Simon:

Yes, I recall that thread. And I agree with your reasoning about the HMG and thier ammo (even in jest).

But, a "Crack Sharpshooter" should have more ammo. I used up all of my mans ammo (well he was down to "LOW") in 7 minutes of battle.

I just expect any "Sharpshooter" to have more longevity in battle than that, especially a "Crack" one.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 07-05-2000).]

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

But, a "Crack Sharpshooter" should have more ammo. I used up all of my mans ammo (well he was down to "LOW") in 7 minutes of battle.

I just expect any "Sharpshooter" to have more longevity in battle than that, especially a "Crack" one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe this seeming lack of adequate ammo has more to do with the way sharpshooters are used in CM than the way "ammo" is tabulated? Most people (including myself) seem like they are having them stand up and blast away until out of ammo. Would a better (realistic? ) tactic be to fire a couple of shots, sneak to a secondary position, fire a bit, sneak off....

Then again, are the sharpshooters meant to represent picked riflemen or fully trained snipers? Tactics (and mission) would differ a bit between the two.

Any former snipers out there to lend their two bits?

[Kingfish]

I'm currently playing a PBEM game in which i hid a sharpshooter in woods as a "stay behind" troop. My opponents infantry advanced thru without discovering him. A little while later 2 teams of arty FO's came along and the sharpshooter got them both!

If you compare the price of one sharpshooter against the amount of firepower those FO's could have brought down on my men, i'd say i got an excellent return for my money.

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The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buckeye:

They're also handy on the defense. Get good LOS, and leave them to pick their own targets. They'll often pay you back with the SEAL mantra: One shot, one kill.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better believe it. When I tried All or Nothing as the Germans, one of my snipers got two (count 'em, two) of the big bad British artillery spotters. When I went back in after a surrender to see what the heck had happened to all the British tanks (they bogged), I saw that it was the 7.2" and one of the 5.5" spotters he nailed. There goes a huge chunk of the British firepower (and certainly the most frightening piece). They've still made mincemeat of my big guns with the smaller artillery, but there won't be any of the wholesale destruction of the town that I unleashed when I played it as the Brits.

That sniper probably saved 30-50 men from having their buildings collapse on them, and maybe a gun or two as well.

-Doug

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by demoss:

Better believe it. When I tried {censored} as the Germans, one of my snipers got two (count 'em, two) of the big bad British artillery spotters. When I went back in after a surrender to see what the heck had happened to all the British tanks (they bogged), I saw that it was the {censored} and one of the {censored} spotters he nailed. There goes a huge chunk of the British firepower (and certainly the most frightening piece). They've still made mincemeat of my big guns with the smaller artillery, but there won't be any of the wholesale destruction of the town that I unleashed when I played it as the Brits.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

{spoiler cop mode}

If you feel obliged to post massive spoilers, please at least begin your post with "WARNING -- SPOILERS", preferably in very large fluorescent letters. Or why not just do a little self-editing before you hit the submit button. And please edit your post ASAP.

{/spoiler cop mode}

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 07-12-2000).]

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

{spoiler cop mode}

If you feel obliged to post massive spoilers, please at least begin your post with "WARNING -- SPOILERS", preferably in very large fluorescent letters. Or why not just do a little self-editing before you hit the submit button. And please edit your post ASAP.

{/spoiler cop mode}

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Massive" spoilers? Surely you jest. I didn't adjust my strategy one bit knowing they were there (not much you CAN do, really) nor once I knew they were dead. Yes, they're important, but it's more like a force of nature than anything - knowing it's there doesn't really soften the impact any, and you can't do much to try to stop it. It's not like I told anybody that the British are rolling three captured King Tigers in from the rear (no, not really ).

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-Doug

[Left4Dead]

"All or Nothing" SPOILERS IN THIS POST

Doug-

I think you miss Hakko Ichiu's point. By reading your post, I now know that when I play the "All or Nothing scenario" (which I've not yet done ) that:

1) The Germans have at least one sharpshooter

2) The British have tanks

3) The British have at least three F.O.'s

4) The Germans have "big guns"

I agree that knowing this stuff beforehand might not change one's strategy drastically, but it does ruin any sense of surprise that I enjoy when playing a scenario for the first time.

-Lefty

[This message has been edited by Left4Dead (edited 07-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Left4Dead (edited 07-13-2000).]

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Left4Dead:

"All or Nothing" SPOILERS IN THIS POST

Doug-

I think you miss Hakko Ichiu's point. By reading your post, I now know that when I play the "All or Nothing scenario" (which I've not yet done ) that:

1) The Germans have at least one sharpshooter

2) The British have tanks

3) The British have at least three F.O.'s

4) The Germans have "big guns"

I agree that knowing this stuff beforehand might not change one's strategy drastically, but it does ruin any sense of surprise that I enjoy when playing a scenario for the first time.

-Lefty

[This message has been edited by Left4Dead (edited 07-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Left4Dead (edited 07-13-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see your point, but....

2) and 4) are implied in the briefings, I'd have been disappointed in the scenario designer if 1) wasn't the case for a situation like this, and 3) is, IMO, a reason to go PLAY THIS PUPPY NOW (and also wasn't a big surprise, IMO). It may have been in the briefing - I don't recall - but artillery in the hands of Brits and Amis should almost never be a surprise. Trust me, I haven't given away any of the BIG surprises - but both sides get fun toys and interesting tactical problems, whether you know what's out there or not. The replay value is very high.

At any rate, I'm sorry if my post bothered you, but I don't think that any of these things should be surprises given the situation - and in a 75-turn scenario, you'll learn all of this on your own well before the end anyway no matter how little you can glean from the briefing, and there will still be plenty to amuse you.

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-Doug

[StampDis]

regarding snipers/scouts:

snipers were certainly used as recon units -- and in fact still are. some of the criteria for sniper selection (for the Army school, anyway) are woodcraft skills, a patient personality, and the ability to accurately report tactical intelligence in a highly stressful environment. marksmanship is but one of the selection criteria. hope that is helpful.

[Slappy]

I have found sharpshooters to be extremely valuable in a couple of ways.

1) Extremely stealthy when not shooting. Had a US rifle squad run within 5m of one sneaking through the woods. Didn't see him at all. Sharpshooter did not fire. Just kept on going about his business.

2) Great for buttoning tanks. Can get an armor ricochet and button up a tank at 800m, way further than he will be spotted. Fantastic way to give your armor the edge.

3) OK at suppressing infantry, but not great. Generally at a range close enough to matter, he'll be seen and taken out.

Blue Light Special: German Fussilier Squads come with SIX SHARPSHOOTERS! Also a bunch of SMG/Rifle mixed infantry. If you're looking for something to send an opponent into unexpected fits, that's it.

[Stefan Fredriksson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

On the subject of ammo loads/points:

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek I say: does this mean that German HMG teams only carry 95 rounds of ammo?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you should count it as 95 bursts, ie 5-10 shots/burst.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I think you should count it as 95 bursts, ie 5-10 shots/burst.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever try to fire a "burst" with a bolt action rifle like the 1903 Springfield or Mauser 98K? With a machine gun, sure, maybe with a semiauto rifle.

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There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton

[IntelWeenie]

"Shots" and "bursts" are simply convenient lables to apply to the way CM models small arms fire. Each "shot" can represent a very few rounds (like for a sniper or a 20mm cannon) or a long automatic weapon burst (like a MG42). It is neccessary to do it this way since the game engine calculates small arms fire every few seconds and not continuously like you would see in Real Life™. Call it what you will, it still represents several second's worth of fire from whatever weapon is in question.

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Ghengis Jim]

What exactly does a sharpshooter do?!

Does he shoot sharps, or rather, sharply shoot?

Well, really, what does a sharpshooter do?

I have never actually been able to get one of mine to fire.

[Ghengis Jim]

By the way, what does IMO mean!?!??!

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghengis Jim:

By the way, what does IMO mean!?!??!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC it means "in my opinion"

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghengis Jim:

What exactly does a sharpshooter do?!

Does he shoot sharps, or rather, sharply shoot?

Well, really, what does a sharpshooter do?

I have never actually been able to get one of mine to fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many sharps would a sharpshooter shoot if a sharpshooter should shoot sharps?

Michael

[Faust]

New to the game so many things to learn BUT.........what about ss, (sharpshoters), taking out exposed/open tank commanders? Target a sniper onto a tank with exposed commander and he will shoot. Sometines there is a yelp and the hatch closes immediately. On checking the ss's kill report, no kill.

Is there a viable ss application here?

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faust:

Target a sniper onto a tank with exposed commander and he will shoot. Sometines there is a yelp and the hatch closes immediately. On checking the ss's kill report, no kill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sharshooter would find it hard to be sure of a kill, and that is reflected in his stats. Whether the tank commander is killed, wounded or shocked, the tank is now buttoned, which should be your main concern.

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"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent