Scouting the enemy, worth it or not?

[JLF]

In most of my games I buy a jeep or two to use as scout units. At turn one they are off scouting, driving to the enemy side. Sometime they can reveal a lot of info about your enemy pos. On the other hand sometimes they get KO without giving any info at all. Worth it or not, it´s your call!

[Wicky]

Jeeps would give you some idea of what's on the roads and nearby but driven fast they would miss quite a bit .

Sneaky, crawling Vet sharpshooters pushed as far as you dare to hide can keep an ear open and a limited eye on what's heading your way with the advantage of potentially buttoning down AFVs for good.

[PakFront]

Some people will probably come in here soon whining about it being gamey.

It never bothered me when someone used jeeps to recon because all they would find were my tanks which would then knock the jeeps out. Then I would reposition my tanks to a different spot.

The only info you gain is knowing what type of tanks they have, but then why waste points on that? They have to bring their tanks out at some point in the game and then you'll know what they are anyway without losing points on "recon by death" jeeps.

[Redwolf]

The only reason why this is gamey is because of the unarmored vehicle non-kill bugs.

If you do it witha Humber or T-8 recon it should be fine.

[zukkov]

i don't like the idea of risking an unarmed vehicle for the purpose of recon. i just don't think an officer would order some private to ride up ahead in a loud jeep and look for the enemy. but i'm hardly an expert on tactics. was it ever done? i damn sure wouldn't want to be that driver. lol..

[Psyched]

I don't consider using a jeep in this fashion as gamey, but instead it's just a poor tactic.

As already mentioned, a Vet sharpshooter is a much more effective foward observer to scout an enemy's position. But I don't SNEAK or CRAWL him up. Instead, I RUN him up during the first one or two turns of the game to either a two story building, or a woods position on top of a hill with good LOS, and HIDE him. Not only does this give you good intelligence the WHOLE GAME, but he can also pick off an HQ unit or tank commander and never be spotted.

In fact, a VET sharpshooter who is hiding in good cover is almost impossible for the enemy to spot. I've had enemy units pass within 2-3 meters of a hidden sharpshooter and not spot him.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sarge Saunders]

Use teams. For example, as you advance a company use at least one split squad (2 teams) to run ahead and scout in front of the company. Be sure to reform them once they run into the enemy as they fight better that way and they avoid a morale hit. Cautiously pushing the coy HQ with them in C&C will improve their performance overall.

Teams make excellent scouts.

-Sarge

P.S. And yes scouting is worth it. Not scouting will get your tanks and infantry killed. No way to win that way.

[ July 30, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Schoerner]

I also prefer the sharpshooters.

They are quite fast and after 2 or three minutes i've put them on positions where they have good LOS.

And if they become eliminated in the first minutes on the sides of the map, then i already know that the enemy's going to try to roll up my flank or at least threatening it and i have time enough to prepare (in most cases ).

Instead of wasting points for scouting-only-vehicles (hey, they don't fit to the rule of combined forces) i prefer to invest in better inf. - especially the few points for a better inf. can force the enemy to use two platoons instead of one for knocking this one platoon out with all the depending benefits.

[ July 30, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i don't like the idea of risking an unarmed vehicle for the purpose of recon. i just don't think an officer would order some private to ride up ahead in a loud jeep and look for the enemy. but i'm hardly an expert on tactics. was it ever done? i damn sure wouldn't want to be that driver. lol..

It is part of the Patton legend that he once ordered a lieutenant to get in his jeep and "Drive down that road until you get blown up and then come back here and report to me."

Michael

[winkelried]

I served 15 years in recon and one of our tactics was effectively to use jeeps. We always did it in pairs, one sneaking up front, the other covering. Both were equipped with radios and so we could warn each other. Worked out quite well in simulated battles (with the laser sensors etc), when you applied the right tactic and use the terrain properly.

The reason to do so, was a question of time we had to do the job. If we had plenty of time we went on foot (eventually being heli-ported), if time was tight we would use jeeps (sure we would have felt better in an armored vehicle).

If time was very tight they would send in a platoon or so of armored infantry and heavy tanks to "see where the enemy was shooting from".

I do the same in combat mission:

- scout teams and sharpshooters when you have time to scout properly. often just screening before the main body. Sometimes it can be useful to let the guys ride on a jeep or a M8 to get them somewhere quickly.

- recon vehicles (jeep, M8, 250/9) are ok if you need to penetrate quickly and deeply.

- eventually a platoon with a StuG/Sherman to recon in force.

I believe that it helps me a lot to get proper information about the enemy's tactic. A lot of the battles I don't win, my recon gets "f..." up.

[Conscript Bagger]

From The Big Red One:

"You know how you smoke out a sniper? You send a guy out into the open and see if he gets shot."

All my CM tactics are Hollywood-approved.

[Shosties]

While this article was written with "one of those other WW2 ETO games" in mind, I found it quite helpful in learning how not to throw away jeeps and Greyhounds and the principles should transfer to CMBO quite directly.

http://www.militarygameronline.com/campaginseries/articles/wf_recon.asp

Skip the first 1/3rd of the article which is a dicussion of concealment rules for their game, go to "Recon Mission Types and Controlling Factors".

Unless your scenario or quick battle is specifically meant to be a probe by recon forces, I would not lead off on the approaches to a flag with lightly armored or unarmored vehicles. In all other situations, these assets are usually much better employed as the eyes and ears for your own flanks in case your opponent is feeling like Hermann Balck that day.

There is the temptation to send these folks deep down the map edges to raid into the enemy rear. In this particular wargame I rarely got useful results that way, and in CMBO there should be fewer vulnerable, high victory point targets (big truck and artillery parks, high level HQs, etc.) . The folks who did this sort of thing in real life; LRDG/SAS and Popski's Private Army come to mind; would almost certainly have stayed far away from anything like a typical battle on the front line, choosing to worm their way behind the front someplace quiet.

[ July 31, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[sebastian]

right from the start: splited squads running foward, spread in a broad line (no C&C usually), from cover to cover, until the point where you expect first contact. than more carfull. don't try to be stealthy. try to make it look like an assault. you want to provoke the enemy to open fire.

on contact: seek cover or try to go around.

[zukkov]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by zukkov:

i don't like the idea of risking an unarmed vehicle for the purpose of recon. i just don't think an officer would order some private to ride up ahead in a loud jeep and look for the enemy. but i'm hardly an expert on tactics. was it ever done? i damn sure wouldn't want to be that driver. lol..

It is part of the Patton legend that he once ordered a lieutenant to get in his jeep and "Drive down that road until you get blown up and then come back here and report to me."

Michael</font>

[Yggdrasill]

I would just add that the "recon by death" tactic of sending an unarmed jeep to "scout" is pretty friggin' gamey, considering that when the jeep is knocked out, it no longer (presumably) has a (functioning) radio, and could not report back.

Likewise, the use of tank crews for scouting is similarly gamey, especially considering that what you would really want to do with them is get them the heck away from the fighting and in to another tank.

I scout with sharpshooters, although I don't know if it is realistic to consider them equipped with a radio. I know a guy who served with the 82nd airborne as an infantry scout and was given a radio by his CO to take on a scouting mission with him into Germany in early '45. The thing squawked so loudly that he threw it as far as he could, and ran the opposite direction, while German MGs used it for target practice.

All in all, I wonder how realistic non-vehicular scouting really is in CMBO. If you don't have a radio should you really be able to report back what you're seeing?

I think it would be cool if the game engine fog-of-war allowed for a player to send a non-radio equipped scouting "unit" (sharpshooter, half-squad, zook, whatever) into the unknown, with orders to proceed to contact and then to return, and then have to wait. The unit would "disappear" once out of line of sight, and then (hopefully) reappear with intel some turns later.

This really plays to the importance of having all units on the map within line of sight of some other unit, that is in line of sight of some other unit, etc. etc. I sometimes use lone zooks or sharpshooters as flank guards when defending on large maps, but these guys are out there on their own, out of sight and out of touch with the CO. Can I realistically be expected to know what they see and be able to give them orders?

Just food for thought.

[Silvio Manuel]

No, all these Jeeps, half-squads, sharpshooters, etc. are typically giving you Intel b/c CMBO isn't perfect (close!) and you're getting Borg/absolute spotting. Unless you want some grandiose gentlemen's agreement, expect that everyone else will do it, too.

I like the idea that Jeep scouting is gamey, b/c unarmored vehicles do not get properly targeted by tanks, so Jeeps have a (slightly) un-realistic chance of surviving "too long" while running the gauntlet. You have to assume that the enemy will scout ahead w/ "radioless" units to get cheap intel.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

All my CM tactics are Hollywood-approved.[/QB]

Tanks in town with enemy inf. close to them and being helpless?

I made the opposite experience: IMO 90% of the WWII-movies are a kind of SF-movies.

[Yggdrasill]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

I like the idea that Jeep scouting is gamey, b/c unarmored vehicles do not get properly targeted by tanks, so Jeeps have a (slightly) un-realistic chance of surviving "too long" while running the gauntlet. You have to assume that the enemy will scout ahead w/ "radioless" units to get cheap intel.[/QB]

Actually, in my experience, jeeps die pretty darn quickly. They are especially susceptible to small arms fire. The only real good they can do in such forward spotting by drawing fire is to reveal the location of enemy guns, although if the guns are well hidden the jeep won't see what hit 'em. If my opponent wants to waste points in such scouting, that's fine with me. None of the good players I have played against used any such sacrifice tactics, presumably b/c they knew it wasn't worth it.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Offwhite:

All my CM tactics are Hollywood-approved.

Tanks in town with enemy inf. close to them and being helpless?

I made the opposite experience: IMO 90% of the WWII-movies are a kind of SF-movies.</font>

[gredeker]

There is historical precedent for using halftracks somewhat in this manner.

I seem to recall reading somewhere (can't remember, and I'm at work ) that Jochen Peiper used the tactic of driving his recon troops hard, effectively dooming them to "recon by death". IIRC, the specific tactic used during the Bulge was to run a single SPW 251/1 a few hundred yards ahead of the main column. When an Allied ambush engaged (most likely destroyed) the HT, that was the signal for the lead elements of the column to dismount and attack. After the position was overcome, the troops mounted up again, and a new HT was chosen to be point.

[Shosties]

Originally posted by redeker:

There is historical precedent for using halftracks somewhat in this manner.

I seem to recall reading somewhere (can't remember, and I'm at work ) that Jochen Peiper used the tactic of driving his recon troops hard, effectively dooming them to "recon by death". IIRC, the specific tactic used during the Bulge was to run a single SPW 251/1 a few hundred yards ahead of the main column. When an Allied ambush engaged (most likely destroyed) the HT, that was the signal for the lead elements of the column to dismount and attack. After the position was overcome, the troops mounted up again, and a new HT was chosen to be point.

redeker,

The problem with this approach in real life would be that I believe ambushers will often let the lead vehicle pass if it doesn't spot them, figuring the point vehicle of a column could be an "expendable"... having a trap sprung later on creates more chaos.

[Guest Mike]

IIRC there's nothing wrong with tanks targeting soft vehicels in CM - except for eth flak trucks.

they get targeted with HE because they're "soft", but are actually lightly armoured and so near misses have little effect on them.

That's not the case with jeeps!!

Besides the ultimate soft vehicle scout is the .50 MG Jeep.

It's cheaper than it's unarmed sibling, and was actually used for scouting by US Cavalry forces in Europe in 44!!

[Shosties]

The Jeep...

Originally posted by Mike:

was actually used for scouting by US Cavalry forces in Europe in 44!!

A company from the cavalry battalion organic to an ETO armored division had three M8 Greyhounds in the armored car section and six jeeps in the light section. I believe three of the jeeps were armed with the Ma Deuce, and the other three each carried a 60mm mortar crew (single tube, needed to dismount to fire).

Here's a huge old thread debating scouting tactics.

[ August 05, 2002, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Mike:

IIRC there's nothing wrong with tanks targeting soft vehicels in CM - except for eth flak trucks.

they get targeted with HE because they're "soft", but are actually lightly armoured and so near misses have little effect on them.

That's not the case with jeeps!!

Besides the ultimate soft vehicle scout is the .50 MG Jeep.

It's cheaper than it's unarmed sibling, and was actually used for scouting by US Cavalry forces in Europe in 44!!

The problem with all soft vehicles in CMBO is that tanks and guns firing at them do not 'lead' the target when they are firing HE. This isn't a big deal when the target is relatively nearby, as the shell will fall only slightly behind the vehicle, but it will still usually be close enough to catch the vehicle in it's blast radius. But when you are firing at a soft vehicle that is moving pretty quickly (like a jeep) from a fair distance away, the vehicle can often 'outrun' the HE shots coming at it. This makes quick-moving jeeps much more effective than they would be at drawing fire to reveal enemy positions - basically it take a lot more shots to kill them, so you're more likely to get your money's worth in terms of revealing enemy positions.

Flak trucks suffer from the same problem, though it may be exacerbated as you note by the fact that they are a bit hardier.

I was recently announced that this problem was fixed for CMBB.

Cheers,

YD

[Incognito]

It can be worth it, sure it can.

However it ain't nearly as important or necessary some might and seem think.

Just go in and go in by force! (backed with mad hamster laught :mad: )