Crossing the T

[Brewmeister]

Here's the situation. A Tiger is situated on a town/village street with buildings on both sides. A Sherman-75 has moved to a side street and is about to cross behind the Tiger (crossing the T). I see several options given the dubious ability of a Sherman killing a Tiger even from behind.

option 1.

Fast move across the street and hope for a lucky shot. Not a good one since only one shot could be taken therefore a low chance at a kill but the Sherman will most likely survive to get another chance.

option 2.

Move across the street with a chance of getting more than one shot. Better option as it increases the chance of a kill but also increases the chance that the Tiger will swing its turret around and get its own shot off.

option 3.

Hunt across the street. Best chance to get as many shots as possible but a good chance that the Tiger will get a return shot and therefore a dead Sherman.

option 4.

Fast Move to just past the middle of the street and then reverse back to the original position behind cover. Good chance of getting more than one shot and also surviving by staying just behind the Tiger's slowly revolving turret.

Opinions and suggestions?

[Equinox]

Whats the range? Is it buttoned?

Anyway Id choose a move/reverse or a straight move. Which one you use is just a gamble on which way the Tiger rotates its turrent. A fast move (assuming room time for acceleration) will have your Sherm moving pretty fast across the intersection and possibly giving yourself away without a shot.

A hunt command might have him sit there, which given the slow rotation of a Tiger turrent might not be too bad, but Id feel nervous with it. If you're a good guesser you could pause before the hunt command so your can pull your Sherm at the beginning of the next turn.

Then again, if your crew is inexperienced it might even balk at the sight of a Tiger, pop smoke and run. *shrug* I dont know if it would do this with a rear shot available though.

An ambush point placed in the intersection towards the Tiger might help too. Just to get your turrent moving just a tad quicker.

[Brewmeister]

Forgot to mention that the range is about 100m and its a buttoned KT.

Didn't think of the ambush point. When you are on the move does your turret rotate faster towards the target if there is an ambush point nearby?

[Shriker]

I'll just jump in here to say that I believe the 'ambush' marker is advantageous because your tank's turret will swing to point in the right direction before it pops out of cover or even sees the KT. This is obviously advantageous because your turret won't have to start swinging *after* it gets into the intersection and spots the enemy tank.

If I were in your position, I'd use that ambush marker tactic and 'fast move' into the intersection and stop right where your tank can see the rear of the KT. This will allow your tank the best hit chance as both it and the KT are standing still, plus the KT turret and tank rotate slowly so you should get off at least a couple of shots before needing to worry (I'd guess a buttoned tank wouldn't even begin to react to a tank behind it until after it's been hit first).

I'm a wee bit on the daring side, but I'd bet this would work. If your tankers get worried, they can still back up or drive ahead into cover on their own.

Let us know what happens!

-Steve

[Conscript Bagger]

Just remember to place the ambush marker so that the Sherman's turret will be pointing at the KT when you cross the street, not where you're starting from - in other words, if you put the ambush marker down at 90 degrees right now, when you move forward the turret will track backward to maintain the "ambush." Put it in the street instead, and as close to the KT as LOS allows - see below:

Personally, I'd hesitate to use an ambush marker in this situation since (a) the KT is at a visibility disadvantage and ( the Sherman's turret is so much faster. I've had more than one experience where I've placed an ambush marker in a similar situation, but it ended up being too close to my tank, so when the enemy came into view my crew faithfully maintained a watchful eye on the ground 20 meters in front of their noses while the enemy tank lined up its shot and blew them away. Good luck...

[Equinox]

One last note on the Ambush marker tactic. The point has to be in the unit's LOS all during the move otherwise it will cancel it and turn its turret back towards the front. And what Offwhite said is possible too, Im glad he mentioned that because I forgot. That said, Ill go with him in saying that tt may be a good idea to forgo the Ambush point unless it can be placed somewhat near the KT. The Sherman's turret speed will probably more than compensate.

[Wreck]

I would probably go for it, myself. Those big turrets are very slow...

But as follows: move fast most of the way across the street, then hunt towards a waypoint further on, out of LOS of the enemy. When hunting your tank will stop and engage the enemy, of course. But by having the "extension" of your move already locked in, if by chance you fail to kill the enemy and he swings around and fails to kill you, you can then change the waypoint from hunt to move fast, and very quickly escape.

The ambush thing is a good idea, *if* you can get it to within 20m of the enemy, or to a point near the enemy that you will lose LOS to during your move.

If you can, hold off on the charge until you can arrange for a decent threat in front of the enemy, i.e. a M-10 or somesuch. Then you move in back and, with a delay, move in front, and the enemy is sure to die.

[YankeeDog]

Brewmeister -

Please post what you decide to do, and the outcome if possible. I'm curious.

[l3w53r]

I'd barrel straight down that road until the sherman bumps the KT, I think a 75 can kill it from point blank.

plus (I think) the tiger will go forward a bit more to be able to shoot something 5 meters from the gun's base.

works with stuarts anyway, well at about half of the time immobilizing it or damaging the gun.even killed a KT from a weak point at the front, maybe the gun was aimed at a hatch or something =)

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: l3w53r ]</p>

[Brewmeister]

Well here's the results from the KT-Sherman showdown and as usual the best laid plans don't always come out like you expect them to.

Warning! the following contains a spoiler for the scenario Far from over Paderborn.

I couldn't use the ambush marker because I didn't have LOS any where near the Tiger and no big guns immediately available (two burning Sherman-76s) so to increase my chances of getting a rear shot I did the following:

I had another Sherman-75 hiding between buildings to the side so I fast-moved then moved it across in front to act as Tiger bait and keep him facing forward. I gave the Sherman in the rear a pause then fast move then reverse order and hit Go.

To my horror the Tiger immediately spun around to turn to the rear and I watched in what seemed like slow motion my Sherman and the Tiger's turret moving to the same spot. The rear Sherman pinged two shots off the side and just as the Tiger locked on target and I was about to kiss my Sherman goodby I hear that distinctive dull clank and see a side turret penetration of the Tiger. The bait bit the cat! But it wasn't over yet.

1 turn later I tried a similar move on another KT in the same village. This time when racing down a street to set up behind the cat it suddenly appeared from between two buldings and the Sherman literally broadsided the thing. From 5m away it pinged a shot off the side, threw some smoke and put it in reverse. Just as the KT was swinging around my big gun came to the rescue, a Jackson rounded the corner and took it out with a side shot. Whew! Lady luck is on my side today.

In a 6 turn stretch I have KOed 3 KTs and lost 2 Sherman-76s not a bad exchange. But I see lots more on the horizon. I wonder how many? Maybe I'll just run cicles around them for the next ten turns sticking my tongue out yelling nyah nyah can't catch me, yeah thats what I'll do...

[CombinedArms]

I'd say you did spectacularly well....The real story at Paderborn was a lot more gruesome for the US, as a recent thread on the main board indicates.

[Louie the Toad]

Nice outcome

BUT

Where is the infantry? Tanks in Towns -- Not Good

Open Topped AFVs in Towns -- Really not good.

One of my first battles vs the AI involved an enemy Panther that had pulled between two buildings of this village. My bazooka team engaged but missed. Then I demonstrated in front of the Panther with infantry. As that was going on I moved a Stuart, my largest AFV, at fast move, preceded by a halftrack in case there was hidden infantry plus my infantry on the ground all at fast move to an intersection. The HT and infantry took up positions. The Stuart turned the corner and raced up to about 30m from the rear of the Panther which was without infantry support. Honestly the Panther seemed to be squeezed between the two buildings and wouldn't or couldn't turn its turret or turn around. The Stuart kayoed the Panther with one or two rear shots. This reminded me so much of the movie Kelly's Heros that I recall posting that fact. Seems like ages ago.

This game just gets better and better. Toad

[Brewmeister]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>

I had infantry in town protecting my tanks but they were only good for buttoning the KTs.

Enemy infantry? I was playing against the AI and as we all know unsupported tanks rumbling down main street is a common AI tactic.

Open top AFV in town? Deperate situations call for drastic actions. Having just lost 2 Sherman-76s I only had 3 Sherman-75s against 2 KTs, not good odds at all that is why I moved my big gun into town under infantry cover. The best I could do under the circumstances.