Men are tired too easily?

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by billcarey:

Hence, over a kilometer or so the machineguns will actually move faster because they're not getting tired as fast.

Advance should not been used for a one kilometer distance. Advance is a specialized movement under fire. Use move.

[Panzer Leader]

From the patch thread. Not exactly on target, but I know some of the people here are interested in this:

Originally posted by Madmatt:

* The suppression thresholds for panicking, breaking and routing are a bit higher.

* Fatigue rate for sneak movement is moderately reduced.

[MasterGoodale]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

Overall I like it a lot. Trying to keep my men fresh enough to be effective means (in my mind) that I have to treat them more as 'humans' and less as 'chess-pieces'. If you get my drift?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Quenaelin]

It must be hard to calculate those troop tiredness values in realistically manner, becouse there are so much of those factors in real world which are making these calculation almost impossible to adapt in to computer game. I think gun parameters and trajectories are much easier to calculate than troops tiredness level and how they are acting under fire. I hope they come out with somekind of solution in this machine gun moving problem and troops not running for cover, I think CMB0 was more realistic in this matter.

[ November 12, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Swift]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

How about those fast moving machine guns then and few squads were laying under fire almost in the middle of the road and didn't run for cover, is this realistic?

I haven't any experience with this but if bullets are flying over my head i might have difficulties getting up and run away. I might just stay put, hug the ground and **** my pants

[MasterGoodale]

Originally posted by Swift:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Quenaelin:

How about those fast moving machine guns then and few squads were laying under fire almost in the middle of the road and didn't run for cover, is this realistic?

I haven't any experience with this but if bullets are flying over my head i might have difficulties getting up and run away. I might just stay put, hug the ground and **** my pants </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I'm also noticing that troops "seem" to tire faster under simaler conditions as CMBO. As was just pointed out to me in a PBEM game MOVE does not tire out your troops. I agree that is true, but it also seems to me that the amount of time or energy a unit has at "READY" status before reporting a TIRING and then TIRED status is less than CMBO. So when you use move for long distances and then a few short RUN or ADVNACE bursts, your troops seem to fall off READY status quick. I have'nt done any testing on this, so it's purely an impression I somehow have and could very easily be mistaken.

I just tried this out in a game I am playing, and it seems to be the case that fit troops can run about as far in BB as they could in BO before dropping into Ready status. They also seem to catch their wind about as quickly.

I've also tried this with a mixture of run and advance commands with the same result. I'll keep my eye open to see if any differences turn up later. I'm not really sure, but it seems that troops using the Sneak command tire about as quickly as they used to do using Crawl. Maybe a little quicker now, but they got tired awfully fast using crawl.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

How about those...squads were laying under fire almost in the middle of the road and didn't run for cover, is this realistic?

One of the things that contibuted to the high D-Day casualty rate on Omaha beach was that the troops, who were well-trained but mostly new to battle, when they came under fire as soon as they stepped off the boats had hit the sand and stayed down, where they were slaughtered. The NCOs and officers who would have told them to get up and move into the lee of the cliffs where they would have been more protected, were themselves early casualties. So the men lay there and died until a few officers showed up and got them moving.

This is only one instance in one circumstance, and I don't mean to generalize from a single anecdote the behavior of all soldiers. I'm not sure that the representation that we have at present in BB is the best that can be hoped for, but neither is it either impossible or incredible.

Michael

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by Tha_Field_Marshall:

I would think that a fit soldier should be able to run more than 50-70 meters without tiring

A fit soldier can run 50-70 meters without tiring, presuming he is well fed, rested, isn't overburdened and doesn't have people trying to kill him.

Just a few references to illustrate the point. While I haven't ever been under fire, I have a quote from SLA Marshall who was well acquainted with being shot at. The following is from 1954 on the subject of combat stress:

I recall July 1918, my regiment was making an 11-mile approach march to the front line. It was a balmy evening, and clear. There should have been no sweat. There was nothing particular prompting foreboding about that journey except the vast pyrotechnical display forward, raising the presumption that if the lights were that much needed, the action must be terrific.

As we arrived at the line, I was astonished to see my platoon in a state of collapse; men dropped in their tracks and could hardly remove their packs. I could not understand it. Three weeks later I was more surprised to see the same men-those who survived-shoulder the same packs and march 35 miles rearward, doing it "in a breeze." The contrast then spelled nothing more important to me than that it is easier to march away from a fight than to march into it.

There are other interesting points from this talk, including Marshall talking about he took part in an attack on a Japanese position on Makin Island. Although the distance was under 600 yards, after 100 yards he was "completely spent" (which in this case he largely attributes to lack of salt!). There is also a para on the importance of leadership to get men moving again when they have dropped after taking fire.

http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/history/booksdocs/KOREA/recad2/ch8-1.htm

There's also an interesting article, Battlefield Mobility And The Soldier's Load by Major William L. Ezell, USMC, which addresses the inter-relationship between physical and emotional factors:

In order to gain a multidimensional approach to the problem we must look beyond those physical aspects common to warfare. The psychological and emotional factors which impact on the individual Marine in combat are paramount to any analysis of energy loss. In battle, stresses caused by fear, hunger, shock, panic, and mental fatigue are interdependent. As described by one veteran of Omaha Beach in World War II:

"We were all surprised to find that we had suddenly gone weak, and we were surprised to discover how much fire men can move through without getting hit. Under fire we learned what we had never been told--that fear and fatigue are about the same in their effect on an advance."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1992/EWL.htm

[Thin Red Line]

Excellent post Brian.

[Quenaelin]

It is very hard to judge who are capable of running under fire, but if you are not running in to cover you will be dead at least in those couple minutes while you are laying on the ground and enemy artillery gets fixed in your location and starts hammering in open field, that will be real massacre, like happened to my troops in Näätäoja mission. In CMB0 men were actually running for cover when routed or panicked in CMBB they are just crawling and laying and getting hammered and crawling more and getting hammered and so on... really pain to watch this massacre, and there was no machine gun fire suppressing them just few fox holes ahead in the forrest line.

This was my first impression about this game after couple of battles, I don't understand why to change something which was already good in CMB0. Good compromise between this laying or running under fire, could be that some troops could be cabable for running to cover and some could be just laying, praying and waiting for their death. Though not Finnish troops, never, we just didn't have so much soldiers to waste

What was so wrong in troops tiring level in CMB0, troops were capable of running short distances and then they were resting by walking, you don't have to stop to get some rest after some running, except if you are unfit. In CMBB soldiers are just laying on the ground exthausted or laying under fire and praying "no more war, we don't fight for our country anymore, peace and love to everybody!" maybe I am exaggerating littbit but anyway

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

In CMBB soldiers are just laying on the ground exthausted or laying under fire and praying "no more war, we don't fight for our country anymore" maybe I am exaggerating littbit but anyway

You're not exagerating that's exactly what 99% of real soldiers think when they are at war.

And that's why the CMBB model is correct IMHO. BFC said they will only tweak the 'sneak when panicked' a little bit.

[massimorocca]

Real problem is that actual engine prevent us to have "exhausted" units but still able to perform well, and sometimes more than well, their task. I'm just reading "We were soldiers once...and young".

I'm sure that the Herrick's platoon, isolated, with 9 dead and only 7 unhurted over 29, pinned down in the dust for two days and one night, without water and food are absolutely "exhausted" in game terms ( more than a squad that had crawled on the ground under fire for two minutes like in CMBB). But I'm also sure that Vietnam soldiers around'em could have some heavy doubt about the "exhaustion" of the GI.

Anyway if we want a "true" war we can join the Army. BTS is only the second choice

[Quenaelin]

I just like to have game which could be somehow realistic, but I think CMBB is exaggerating soldiers tiredness a lot. "Well, I just lay down here and not fight." that seem to me mentality in this game, but in reality world when you are soldier and you have your duty to do, which is to kill or to get killed. So there is no time to rest in the middle of the combat, you can rest when advance is over. In this game there can be just half an hour advance (30 turns) in the forrest where at least 15 minutes have to be used for resting, I think that is very lazy fighting.

When advancing, others are standing by, resting and covering and while others are running for advance, so others get rest while others are running, that is how it is planned to go, no sleeping hours here in the middle of battle, that kind of movement shouldn't be punished so much in this game. I can understand when machine gun or enemy fire begins, then they will slow up or get exhausted but not just by advancing in the forrest.

[ November 13, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Michael Emrys]

Quenaelin, I don't get the impression that you have been reading the replies that people have made to your posts. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again even though it has been pointed out that in the game you keep citing your men got tired because YOU made the mistake of giving them the wrong command. You should quit whining and learn to play correctly. Then if after that you find something that is a legitimate complaint, come back and sing out.

Michael

[Quenaelin]

Ok, if it looks like I am keep repeating this, that is becouse nobody seem to get my point. I really don't know did I really make mistake by issuing advance command in the forrest, becouse troops should be able to advance in the forrest. I have read every post, but everyone keeps repeating that I made mistake and advancing and running in the forrest should be wearing men of very quicly to the level of exthaustion. And I would like to rise some discussion about this matter, that is why I keep repeating too.

[Lindan]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

Ok, if it looks like I am keep repeating this, that is becouse nobody seem to get my point. I really don't know did I really make mistake by issuing advance command in the forrest, becouse troops should be able to advance in the forrest. I have read every post, but everyone keeps repeating that I made mistake and advancing and running in the forrest should be wearing men of very quicly to the level of exthaustion. And I would like to rise some discussion about this matter, that is why I keep repeating too.

"Advance" is a label used for a certain type of action performed by your troops. It was pointed out several times what it means. I really don't get what is so hard to understand. If I use "move" to get from point A to the 100m distant point B, I will arrive quite fresh. We can try this out if you like. We both take our 50pounds backpack and start. I'll walk to point B (move), you get down on the ground every 5meters, get up again, zigzag, down, up etc (advance). Then we'll compare how fresh we feel after the 100meters.

Please excuse if I missed the point, but the commands are defined a certain way (described in the manual) and work as they should IMO.

[Thin Red Line]

Quaenalin,

[Edited because Lindan said the same, and posted it faster than me so if you got his point, you don't need to read the following]

As others have explained, and as the manual states, the order advance in cmbb doesn't mean simply 'advance' . It means move from cover to cover while returning fire to the enemy. This is physically very tiring.

If you want your troops just go in a direction, you should use the move order. Move does't tire your troops, so you'll be satisfied.

[ November 13, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Thin Red Line ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I really don't know did I really make mistake by issuing advance command in the forrest...

You are mistaken and that is what everybody is trying to explain.

I wonder if maybe you aren't hung up on the word 'advance' and are giving it a different meaning than BTS does within the context of the game. The behavior that this command is meant to model is not simply walking forward in a state of alertness. That is what the Move to Contact order is for. As has already been described, Advance means dashing forward, dropping to the ground, giving covering fire, rising up and dashing forward some more and repeating the process. Clearly it is a more tiring procedure than merely walking at a steady pace, especially when extended over the several minutes necessary to cover 100 meters this way.

If faced with this situation again, try using Move and Move to Contact orders and see how that works.

Michael

[Swift]

This might be like beating a dead horse but I will tell you how I move my soldiers in CMBB:

To get them to action I use MOVE. When MOVING they think that all is safe and will hate me if they get shot at (showing their hate by panicking and routing).

When I anticipate action I will use ADVANCE. This makes my soldiers very tired so I usually let them rest when their status shows "tiring". If I don't let them rest they will get exhausted.

Advancing with pausing takes a lot of time but as my combat instructor told me "We should not run the enemy to death, we should shoot him to death"

[Quenaelin]

What?. 50 pound backpack, so you are talking about full gear after all, I was beleaving that men in Combat Mission are just wearing battle gear and not full gear, battle gear should be just gun and few clips of ammunitions in battle belt, about 25 pounds total and definetly with no backpack when advancing in the combat. I can do lots of zigzaging in battle gear but not definetly in full gear and with backpack. I really understand this tiredness if all men are fitted with fullgear and backpack and such, but who to hell will be advancing in the forrest in the combat with fullgear, backpack and all the stuff with you, that would be clear maddness.

[ November 13, 2002, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Asok]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I can do lots of zigzaging in battle gear

Notice that the Advance order is not just zigzagging. You may be familiar with 'syöksyen eteenpäin', which seems to be pretty close to what the CMBB Advance represents.

[Quenaelin]

So why this advancing command cannot be "dash advance" "syöksyen eteenpäin" then, it would be more clear to everybody to understand.

[ November 13, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Panzer Leader]

Here's a solution. Change oreders like this:

Currently Move = Advance

Currently Advance = Advance Under Fire

There you have it. It's all just words, people.

[Thin Red Line]

It is not difficult to change the BMPs.

Interfaces mods in cmbo renamed some orders IIRC.