700 Pts German Combined Arms Defense: What Would You Buy?

[JasonC]

July. Ouch, didn't catch that part. No Jacksons certainly makes the Hetzer look better.

On "run the table" (for Tarq) it means after all the armor is dead, not just spotted. It is an expression from pool. In pool if you sink one ball with your shot you get to shoot again. Two or more in one turn is a "run". If you string together successful shots at all the remaining balls in one "turn", you are said to "run the table".

So, the armor war analog is to take down all the enemy tanks (the "balls"), sometimes in a "mad minute" where you engage with everything possible, after you've "line up" all the shots.

On arty vs. open topped AFVs, only VT worries me. Big stuff is worse than little, but my experience is that artillery is a very iffy proposition against any kind of armor, no matter how thin. If it is dropping right where you are, move certainly, to reduce the risks. But overall, if the enemy fires off board artillery at my AFVs I'm very happy. I count it a long shot waste for him and living infantry for me.

As for 155s not being useful because they are too iffy, that is not my experience with them. I find them incredible bargains at less than the cost of a 105mm FO. I often use the 105s anyway purely for realism, because they are the most common US form of artillery support. But if pure gamey effectivess is the only thing at stake, I'll take the 155mm every time.

Dodging them because you see the spotting round isn't really a defense against them. They are easy to "walk" around with an adjustment, under 100 yards, every turn. That produces a thin drizzle of 4 super sized explosions in a typical turn, which you can keep going a long time. Just one hitting a nearby tree can ruin a whole platoon's day. If anything is sitting still, one full minute will do the job, like as not.

Priests are powerful in the right conditons but have one serious drawback. The front upper hull is vunerable to 20mm (or anything bigger - 50 PAK, 75 IG, etc). 20mm is pretty common and in CM is hyper accurate. So they have to be used gingerly. I've tried that and had it tried on me, with mixed results.

As for puppchens, they are obviously gamey. If I didn't have them as a cheap AT means I'd use schrecks or 50mm PAK or both. Would I take the StuH over the Hummel without puppchens up front? Maybe. Maybe I'd feel lucky - lol.

To redwolf - I prefer no map rejections. Nothing fair about it, just let the chips fall where they may. With that allowed, I'd be happy to play this set up PBEM, as either side.

[Tarquelne]

It's ah, 6:00 am here and I havn't been to sleep yet. Rather than actually thinking I'm just going to write "stuff". Here we go:

Originally posted by JasonC:

[QB]July. Ouch, didn't catch that part. No Jacksons certainly makes the Hetzer look better.

Definetly - the Hummel and the Hetzer look pretty much the same to a Jackson, and that's "easy prey."

On "run the table" (for Tarq) it means after all the armor is dead, not just spotted.

Given that, I think you're wrong to use the Hummel that way in the 700pt. def. scenario. And, of course, I'm sure that's why you didn't say you would.

On arty vs. open topped AFVs, only VT worries me. Big stuff is worse than little, but my experience is that artillery is a very iffy

I saw 4 closed AFVs get KO'd or Immobilzed by arty in my last too games. Maybe just lots of arty in the games. (And, actually, 2 of the Immobilizations were obviously due to an extreme amount of luck.)

I think I've had better than "iffy" success against OT vehicles with 81mm mortar. In QB, at least, I've found it worth the points to fire at OT vehciles - plenty of ammo... I'd rarely use it all against infantry.

Dodging them because you see the spotting round isn't really a defense against them.

Not always a succesfull defense, but I generally focus a lot of my set up/tactics on avoiding artillery. By "a lot" I mean "more than the other people I play." I'm pretty sure this is true: I _do_ often succesfully avoid arty damage, and I have an easier time doing this against 155mm... OTOH, my defense is so mobile it's very easy to take even more casualties from enemy infantry/tanks. "Risk" preferences again, I bet.

As for puppchens, they are obviously gamey.

Thank you, I didn't want to say that.

To redwolf - I prefer no map rejections. Nothing fair about it, just let the chips fall where they may. With that allowed, I'd be happy to play this set up PBEM, as either side.

I can understand why redwolf wants to do that map-rejection stuff: try to minimize the map's influence on the 700pt. defense "test."

Redwolf: What about developing a "neutral" and rather un-interesting test-map to be used multiple times? (Assuming you're quite interested in the matter...)

[Redwolf]

The difference in the maps are a problem. I've seen quite a few maps while fooling around with this, and they tend to have north-east ridges. The location of the ridge changes the whole game. Also some had the woods on the sides and some in the center of the defender's zone.

I like the idea of a designed or semi-designed map used multiple times. It makes the experiment less dependent on "the game", a little closer to reality.

[JasonC]

To Tarq - the point about 81mm vs. open tops is a good one. More shells flying should mean more direct hit chances. I mostly use 81s on defense (no dug in targets) against infantry in trees (for treebursts). Expecting only a pin or fire-ascendency outcome. I avoid taking them when attacking, though some use them for smoke or what-not I'm sure.

[Redwolf]

81mm mortars kill open-top vehicles reasonably well when those pass through or by scattered trees. Just did that to a Wirbelwind which would be a major problem otherwise.

The US 4.2" mortar module has something like a 50:50 chance to immobilize a StuG in a few turns. IIRC you can dump on different 4 tanks and expect to damage 2 of them with the module's ammo load.

Obviously the latter issue is a major problem for the solutions built around a single Hetzer.

[dasreich]

-- All Veteran --

1 X 150mm Infantry Gun

1 X Hetzer

1 X Fallschirmjager platoon

1 X Volksgrebadier SMG platoon

1 X PSW 240/3 Heavy Armored Car

1 X 81mm mortatr artillery spotter

Although some question the use of such a gun on a small map, when used in an ambush, it can have devastating effects. I once sent almost an entire company of Allied riflemen off of the map with a well placed shot. Granted, it becomes a target real quickly. The hetzer, with its sloped armor and 75mm gun, can take out most allied vehicles and take a few hits. The FJ platoon has an assortment of different guns and a panzerschreck attached to it. The VG SMG platoon is used well at a close range ambush. The armored car serves as infantry support, and the mortars fire relatively quicl;y and can be used to hamper advancing troops

(I have used this combination successfully against human and computer opponents)

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by dasreich:

-- All Veteran --

1 X 150mm Infantry Gun

1 X Hetzer

1 X Fallschirmjager platoon

1 X Volksgrebadier SMG platoon

1 X PSW 240/3 Heavy Armored Car

1 X 81mm mortatr artillery spotter

Uh Oh.

German Army: No Fallschirmjäger.

July 44: No VGs, I think.

Nice try, though.

[dasreich]

I guess my sight is going

Instead supplement FJ and VG platoons for two motorized platoons. Also the mortars will have to go to be replaced with 75mm artillery. Then throw in an MG42 LMG. That combination is almost as effective, using 691 points (All Veteran)

[Redwolf]

2-men LMG and 75 mm are probably the most ineffective units in the game.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by redwolf:

81mm mortars kill open-top vehicles reasonably well when those pass through or by scattered trees. Just did that to a Wirbelwind which would be a major problem otherwise.

And, needless to say, larger modules work even better. My current champion is a 105 FO who, with a single round, took out three (!) Hellcats. The round hit right at the edge of some trees, got a treeburst, and killed all three of the TDs nearby.

:cool:

Yes, this was against a live opponent. It was even in a tourney.

[Capricornelius]

I must say - I read this entire thread greatly interested. WOW - you lot seem to have some damn good ways with tactics... I started playing 3 days ago and I've just let my computer assign troops so far!

[Tarquelne]

81mm mortars kill open-top vehicles reasonably well

How thin does top armor have to be to allow 81mm to kill a closed vehicle? (How about 60mm or 50mm?) I'm pretty sure I recently saw a StuG III killed by 81mm mortar.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />81mm mortars kill open-top vehicles reasonably well

How thin does top armor have to be to allow 81mm to kill a closed vehicle? (How about 60mm or 50mm?) I'm pretty sure I recently saw a StuG III killed by 81mm mortar.</font>

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by redwolf:

2-men LMG and 75 mm are probably the most ineffective units in the game.

Not so sure about the LMG. Hard to kill, very cheap, even if Elite. Adding an Elite LMG to a platoon can definitely strenghten that platoon. Or put an Elite LMG into a foxhole in trees or wood; it will delay enemy infantry and soak up a lot of small arms ammo, before it dies. It can also be reasonably useful as an observation post, instead of a half-squad or sharpshooter.

[JasonC]

LMGs are useful for deception, to give the enemy an "infantry" counter cheaply, or help create the appearance of a full platoon position when really only a few guys are there. For defenders, they can make static advanced listening posts, but with a life expectancy next to nil (whereas half squads can run away).

But they won't shoot anything to speak of. They have little firepower, no ammo, and they die very easily. It is especially a problem that they can't even handle half squad scouts without dying, and can't even pin anything until the range is so close infantry replies as dangerous in return.

If you want a unit to absorb enemy ammo, and to dish out anything in return, a dug in HMG is a much better bet, than even 3 of the LMGs. It has 4 times the ammo, 3 times the firepower, 2-5 times the effective pinning range, stops half squads in the open, etc. If you want mobile MGs on the attack, take fast 2 LMG squad types, not medium speed, low ammo LMGs.

As for the idea of using elite ones, in most QBs it is out of the question since the force quality levels can't be mixed.

[skelley]

First off I gotta say making defenders use vets and crack troops is bad. It tips the scales even more to the attackers side. but if forced to play that game I would choose 1 coy SS rifle(with 2 MGs) 1 120mm spotter and 1 hetzer and a TRP. For the most part I would say the defender is screwed but GL. Unless playing an incompetent player the defender will lose this battle.

[Austrian Strategist]

Elite LMGs:

I think they can be useful to cheaply stretch your line. Here is an example of what I mean:

x x x - o o o - x x x - o o o - x x x

Mines Platoon Mines Platoon Mines

- 1 ----- o ----- 1 ----- o ----- 1

LMG -- HQ -- LMG -- HQ -- LMG

...and so on.

[ June 28, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Austrian Strategist ]

[OG_Gleep]

After reading this thread today, I thought I would give it a go.

I don't know if I had the exact setup right, but here was my battle.

Date: July 44

Time: Day

Weather: Clear

Army: 700 points

Place: Village

Tree: Light

Hills: Moderate

Type: Allied Attack

Units: Combined Arms

OOB:

Germans: All Vet

Armor -

1x Hetzer (Suggested in this thread)

2x Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm FLAK

Infantry -

2x SMG Platoon

Support -

1x LMG

1x 75mm Pak40 AT

1x 75mm Infantry Gun AP

2x 50mm PaK38 AT

2x Target Ref

Allied -

Armor/Vehicles -

2x M10 TD

1x Scout Jeep

1x M5A1 Halftrack

Infantry -

1x Rifle Company

1-2x Rifle Platoon (?)

Support/Art -

1x 105mm FO

2x M1919 MMG

1x .50 Cal HMG

?x 60mm Mortars

Battle -

The Village was located in the middle of the map, the concentration of buildings being highest in the middle. On the Right flank there was a wooded area that had a clear view of the allied staging area, that wasen't blocked by allied terrain(ie: their wooded areas, buildings etc.) I placed one of the 50's on the right flank and supported it with the Hetzer. Behind the woods I placed one of the 37mm FLAK's. I positioned it to cover the a small area of the left flank, the woods covering it from all other angles. I placed all my infantry in the center, spread through the village in each of the buildings. Knowing that SMG squads had limited range, but were devistating up close, I planned to hide them till the last minute. I also placed the 75mm AT in a wooded area that was right next to the road, on the side of the lead building. This would protect against armor that made it through to threaten my inf. I also placed the last Flak in a funny position. On the Middle-Left flank, behind a housing block that was right next to the road, I positioned it so it could see in between two buildings. This was to be in reserve, moving to any trouble spots...at the same time it had a very very narow field of fire to take pot shots at any units that crossed it (seriously it was a straight line leading from its gun to the other edge of the map). On the left beind a hedge shaped like a V, I placed the remaining two guns, the 75mm Inf, and the 50mm AT. These had clear shots at the right flank, and due to a hill, had limited view of the center and left. But they were ready for anything that poped over the hill.

Battle -

Being confident after reading through this thread, I was ready for any threat. I didn't count on the fact that my guns would be murdered so fast. Within the first 4 rounds, I had lost my entire right flank (AT, Hetz, Flak) and the 75 in the center, with inflicting only minimal damage, 1 m10 TD. The Allies were riding high, and sent ALL their rifle squads charging forward. By the start of turn 5 their lead elements were 30m from the 1st bulding....the HeavyMG squad from 2nd platoon. At this point I was sure of defeat, but descided to play through so I could nag you guys for poor advice =).

The next 6 turns were pure slaughter. The German SMG teams unleashed hell on the poor Allies. I have always been a fan of SMG teams, but this sealed it for me.

Another big surprise was the remaining FLAK gun. He managed to knock out the remaing allied vehicles/armor, and inflict major pain on the infantry.

At turn 14 I sent 1st

End results - Major German Victory

Allies -

142 Cas (29 Kia)

36 Captured

3 Mortars Destroyed

4 Vehicles

Men Ok 7

Germans -

26 Cas (5 KIA)

2 Guns

2 Vehicles

Men Ok 74

Notable Units

Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm

17 infantry

1 Halftrack

1 M10 TD

1 Scout Jeep

Heavy MG Squad

32 infantry

1 captured

3 casualties

SMG Squad

32 infantry

3 captured

2 casualties

Mistakes -

I have a post pending addressing this, but I always always always put my guns in a position to cover a wide area, because of the fact in MANY of my earlier games I placed them in areas where no enemy ever came into their fireing arc. That said, as soon as my guns opened fire, they were met by every gun the allies had it seemed.

My infantry tactics worked well. On turn 8 I turned my attention to the platoon who had taken the right flank (wooded area). The FLAK, and the two guns on the left flank pouned the area, while I sent in a SMG squad to wipe them out. Poor guys couldn't do a thing while my boyz walked around and calmly shot them.

If there is any chance I will be fighting in close quarters, I have no problem relying on SMG Platoons. Anyone else a fan?

[ July 01, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: OG_Gleep ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

If there is any chance I will be fighting in close quarters, I have no problem relying on SMG Platoons. Anyone else a fan?

Well, the problem here (besides that you chose units not available in July) is that the SMG infantry is too effective in CMBO, plus underpriced and hence people usually put a strict limit on them.

The SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 are usually verboten in any game.

[OG_Gleep]

Hrmm you know you may be right. This was the 2nd battle. I accidently picked the wrong map so I restarted. I quite possibly could have forgot to turn back the clock.

I'll give it another go.

On the SMG infantry point...

Out of 3 squads, only one is effective at any range. Through many games, I have limited them in my personal OOB's to Reserves, City fighting, Defenses (Ambushes), and any time I feel I can get them into Close quarters. In those situations they are the best I have seen. Put them in a foxhole, and tell them to shoot it out and they fall short imho.

[OG_Gleep]

Yeah you were right, I forgot to switch the date when I started my 2nd battle. I just finished a battle with the proper date.

German OOB -

Infantry -

2x Mountain Troop Platoon

Armor/Vehicles

2x Sd Kfz 7/2

1x Hetzer

Support

1x 75mm AT

1x 75mm Infantry

1x 50mm AT

1x 20mm FlaK

Allied -

1x Sherman

3x M3 Halftracks

1x Rifle Company

Additonal Support

Zooks

LMG's

.50 cal's

Reading through my "Gun positon" thread I followed people's suggestions, having each gun cover a limited area. Unfortunatley for my 50mm on the right flank, they had all but one vehicle on the right flank, plus most of their infantry had a shot at the right flank. Fortunatley I positioned all most all of my guns/armor in a "hull down" position. By the end of the 2nd turn all of his armor were in ruin, and I had only lost one crew member on my 50.

Anyhow it was a pretty easy battle.

142 Casulaties

20 Captured

4 mortars

4 vehicles

vs

9 casulaties

2 vehicles (lost one of the AA HT's to a Platoon leader at 100 yards. Must of hit the gastank, and the Hertz to a bazooka that was in a house I thought was clear. I sent my 3 vehicles out to mop up the infantry that was massed in the center. After these two went up, I got pissed and charged 4 squads at them. Result was 4 squads eliminated, and 4 captured, for the loss of 1 man. Poor boys couldn't move due to my guns and the remaining HT surpressing them.)

[CrapGame]

OG,

Your use of the flak wagons tilts the battle heavily in your favor. Try the same battle without the flak wagons or scale up the attackers points and troop quality modifiers. That still may not offset the unfair advantages of the Sd Kfz 7/2.

It will be a whole new ballgame, and quite a fun one at that.

[Redwolf]

Assuming that an attacker would buy one Sherman and three halftracks in the presense of FlaK guns is also pretty much of a stretch, if not an insult to the rest of humanity.

Try 5x M8 HMC, and no 37mm Flak.

So what about playing now? So far only Jason stepped forward, but everyone else just assume thes attacker has no chance anyway?

Maybe we should better try defensive strategies on a sane parameter battle

[Cpl Carrot]

Send me the setup, and I'll do my best to stop you. Just make sure you reconfirm the parameters in your email.

Cpl Carrot

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Maybe we should better try defensive strategies on a sane parameter battle

Skelley: No SS. Army only.

Gleep: No Gebirgsjaeger. Army only.*

Redwolf: Grrr! :mad:

(I actually did play this QB, before I started the thread, and it was fun, and seemed balanced enough.)

*Edit: Gebirgsjaeger, being mostly Austrians, are far too strong against any opposition, which is correctly modelled in CM.

[ July 02, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Austrian Strategist ]