Will CMBB have the Americans? I can't recall.

[Louie the Toad]

I mean American forces, not just US units used by other countries.

If so then WWIII battles vs the Russians could be constructed !!

Nuuucleeearr confrontation, toe to toe with the Rooskies...... Toad

[Runyan99]

Um, could you tell us what American divisions fought on the Eastern Front?

[Chad Harrison]

The russians will use lend lease american equipement; ie. shermans, jeeps, 2 1/2 tun trucks, and even .50cals i think. But, there will be no american troops. Unless they throw in the US troops that joined with germany to fight the communists.

chad

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

I mean American forces, not just US units used by other countries.

If so then WWIII battles vs the Russians could be constructed !!

Nuuucleeearr confrontation, toe to toe with the Rooskies...... Toad

That would be almost as funny as seeing the Japanese fighting on the same side as the French... People have asked this way to many times, DO a Search or Somefink!

[ June 15, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

...the US troops that joined with germany to fight the communists.

I'd be interested to hear which troops these were. Always willing to learn something new.

Michael

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

...the US troops that joined with germany to fight the communists.

I'd be interested to hear which troops these were. Always willing to learn something new.

Michael</font>

[Commissar]

Nope. You won't see the Yanks, nor should you. There was some hope a long time ago that CM2 and CM1 would be able to work together. That way you could get "what if" scenarios like the Russians v. the Americans. Unless BTS has done a 180 on this, CM2 and CM1 will be separate and the only thing American you'll see is some lend-lease since doing this would require a major code overhaul.

[ June 15, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Determinant]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

Never heard about the SS Division South Carolina ? [/QB]

Ahh. Nazi Germany. Those boys really were up to speed with 'rebranding' weren't they? Let's call four blond teenagers with bicycles a mechanised division and use them to halt that Soviet tank corps. Blah, blah. It would be hilarious if it wasn't for all the murders.

[Louie the Toad]

Commissar,

Thanks for the concise and polite reply. Wasn't there a time near the end of the war where US and Russian forces came close together? Defeating the Germans and then shaking hands and all. Wasn't Patton interested in a confrontation with the Russians? What about the territory grab that resulted in East/West Germany and Berlin?

Runyon,

I guess you never heard about all of that huh?

Panzerman,

Same goes for you. What are you on?? with the French and the Japanese remark.??

Once again Thank You Commissar.... Toad

[Panzer Leader]

Louie, they were joshing with you, since no living human with any sense of history, or even CURRENT affairs, could ever conceive that perhaps the Soviet Union and the US ever actually did go to war with each other. Or could they?

That is why, my friend, it was called the COLD WAR - because it was a war of espionage, arms races and diplomacy, never one of fireballs and bullets, not even in the beginning. Did you not know this?

Wow, I am trying to imagine not knowing whether the US and Russia ever went to war. Wait a minute, was there a 3rd World War, or are we still waiting for that one? :eek:

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Panzerman,

Same goes for you. What are you on?? with the French and the Japanese remark.??

Once again Thank You Commissar.... Toad

I know this may be a foreign concept to you, but its called a joke.

[vbfg]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

...the US troops that joined with germany to fight the communists.

I'd be interested to hear which troops these were. Always willing to learn something new.

Michael</font>

[MikeT]

Well there are some features of CMBB that could be usful in making a new series of CMBO battles. CMBB has larger maps, has fortifications, the doodads, etc. For those reasons alone I wouldn't mind seeing CMBO components there but I am not holding my breath.

MikeT

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

Never heard about the SS Division South Carolina ?

What? A bunch of overweight Ritterkreuz wearing re-enactors fought in Russia? Cor blimey, guv, who would have thought...

Did their HMG teams run?

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Louie, they were joshing with you, since no living human with any sense of history, or even CURRENT affairs, could ever conceive that perhaps the Soviet Union and the US ever actually did go to war with each other. Or could they?

While it is a bit outside the scope of CM:BB, and does not quite come to the level of declared war between the two countries, just for the sake of historical accuracy, it is worth noting that US and Soviet forces have met in combat several times. The closest to the sense that Louie was originally talking about came in the aftermath of WWI, when various western powers sent troop contingents to Russia to help the White, or Tsarist forces in their fight against the Reds (Communists) during the Russian Civil War (1919-1922, I think). American troops were sent to Murmansk, Archangel, and Vladivostok, and did in fact engage in limited combat operations against Communist troops.

The US was not the only country to send forces. England, France and Japan, at least, also sent troop contingents. The Japanese, in fact, sent an enormous number of troops into Siberia - something like 250,000, and were apparently hoping to keep the whole area. Their disappointment at being ejected by the victorious Communists set the stage for the long term conflict between the two powers in that area.

The US, along with most other western powers, quickly forgot about this rather embarassing incident. The Russians, by contrast, did not, and these incidents formed the basis for much of the Soviet state's suspicion and hatred of the west. Having most of the rest of the civilized world try to eliminate your government even as it struggles to be born can kind of scar a collective memory, I guess.

Also, in a diffent time and place, American pilots fought directly against their Soviet counterparts. The place was Korea, and the time was 1951-53. For more than a year after the introduction of the Soviet built MiG-15 into combat in Korea, all MiGs were flown by Russian pilots in Russian aviation units on temporary "loan" to the Chinese government. Until Stalin's death in 1953, the majority of MiGs in combat against American air forces continued to be flown by Soviet pilots, despite the growing number of Chinese and Korean MiG pilots.

So yes, the USA and the USSR did engage in combat against each other. It just tended to be on a small scale, and not widely known, either at the time or later. This probably does not give much of a basis for American/Soviet combat in CM:BB, no matter how interesting it might be to speculate on such actions. Goerge Patton leads a drive to Moscow, anyone?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

Goerge Patton leads a drive to Moscow, anyone?

Koniew leading a drive to Paris, while Gretschko is going for Rome across the Alps, and Zhukov takes revenge for the Spanish Civil War, more like it.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Did their HMG teams run?

Only if they had been drinking green beer.

Michael

[Paul T. Gardner]

A few points -

It is widely thought that Patton wished to fight the Soviets at the conclusion of WWII, and indeed many Germans thought that the US would side with Germany as the war drew to a close in order to repel the Red menace from Europe.

As notable a figure as Adolf Galland held such views. He offered to use his new jet equiped units to fight for the Americans against the USSR, however, they refused him and merely asked that he surrender and turn over his planes.

Also, regarding the German view on this point, I have this quote from Rudolph Salvermoser, A Großdeutschland Veteran, by Robert Witter on Feldgrau.com:

Anyway, here we were with the remnants of Großdeutschland, right beside the American 45th Infantry Division. I could not figure out why the Americans treated us so cordially and respectfully. I always thought when a soldier surrendered to the enemy, the first thing he did was to deliver his weapons to his captors. This was not the case, however, so I could only speculate on their reasons for allowing us to remain armed. Earlier, while we were still on the road from Linz, we met several German infantrymen who were toting their weapons and headed east. We stopped and asked them where they were going, that the Russians were coming and, if they were looking for their unit, they could come with us. "No," they replied, "we are going east to fight the Russians because the Americans are going to aid us!" Our lieutenant thought that this was ridiculous because it was highly unlikely that an enemy would turn around and, after beating you, would help you fight their own allies.

Thomas Goetz notes most of the well known incidents US and Soviet met in battle, though an interesing and somewhat unrelated point about US and Soviet pilots meeting in Korea is that the technology they were flying was directly based on German research and development. The MiG-15 is based on the (Kurt Tank/Focke-Wulfe) Ta-183, and the NA F-86 Sabre on the Messerschmitt P.1101.

Also, I guess it's worth mentioning that the British Royal Navy even helped against the Soviets when in December 1918 they prevented the fall of Tallinn (Estonia), allowing the Estonian Army to force Red Army units back from their push into the Baltic States.

Rgds

[Thomas Goetz]

Originally posted by Paul T. Gardner:

Thomas Goetz notes most of the well known incidents US and Soviet met in battle, though an interesing and somewhat unrelated point about US and Soviet pilots meeting in Korea is that the technology they were flying was directly based on German research and development. The MiG-15 is based on the (Kurt Tank/Focke-Wulfe) Ta-183, and the NA F-86 Sabre on the Messerschmitt P.1101.

Couple of minor points/corrections here - both the F-86 and the MiG-15 were heavily influenced by German WWII technology, but neither was actually based on a German design. The MiG did borrow a number of design concepts from the Ta 183, but was largely an original design. "MiG-15: Design, Development, and Korean War Combat History" by Gordon and Rigmant provides excellent information for anyone interested.

The initial design of the F-86 was actually completed, along with a partial mockup, before the war ended. The initial design was straight winged, and intended for the Navy. A small number saw service in the Navy as the FJ1 Fury. North American decided to redesign the airplane to make it more competitive with current Air Force jets - the P-80 and P-84 - and decided to incorporate swept wings. That meant studying the WWII German swept wing fighter, the Me 262. In fact, the intial prototype P-86 wing slats were taken directly from an Me 262.

The Messerschmitt P.1101 was an experimental "variable sweep", or "swing wing" design, which was brought to the States and evaluated, and Bell built a copy, the X-5, which was tested and became the basis for later deisgns such as the F-111 and F-14.

Sorry if this seems a bit off the original subject, or nitpicky. It's just that I wrote my dissertation on early American jets, and so have a lot of generally useless information on the subject in my head, and I don't like to see it go to waste.

[Terence]

Actually, there was a little known unit that does fit the bill of Americans fighting with the Soviet Red Army. Below are some cut/pastes from some previous posts on the subject.

Didn't you know there was an entire infantry division in the Red Army made up entirely of British and American bomber crews who crashed over Eastern Europe and took up grenade and rifle to smash fascism?

The Soviets wouldn't give the troops back but they did permit the US send them enough equipment to function as a real infantry division. Rumor has it that this unit, the Uncle Sam's Guards Division, was about to break through and take Berlin, but Chuikov ordered them to secure the rear areas. (Nelan)

____________

I suggest Rossokovsky's updated edition of RED AMERICAN ARMY; it discussed in detail the USGD that Terence refers to.

I believe they were equipped with Tokarev semi-auto rifles because of their previous familiarity with the M-1 Garand. Quite unusual given their rarity in other, "ethnically pure" Soviet units. (Dorosh)

_________

WRT to Rossokovsky's book, -- a whopper at 1900 pages -- Mr. Dorosh is quite right. Red American Army is the seminal work on the subject, and contains detailed TO&E and tactical evaluations.

For a more light hearted look at the Uncle Sam Division take a look at Mudakov's "Red White and Pink: Americans Fighting for the Soviets" which was published in the US-Soviet thaw of the 60s at Kruschev's instruction.

Of particular interest will be the description of the battle of Maly Durak, where the USGD executed a textbook double envelopment of a German Panzergrenadier outfit, but in the dark ended up savaging its own supply columns.

You can be sure Stalin had a laugh over that!!!

(Nelan)

[Panzer Leader]

What?? Is that a joke? :confused:

[Terence]

Your question is the product of false consciousness.

Please attend a self-criticism session at once.

[lcm1947]

Wait a minute. Let me get this straight? No bomb dogs, horses, bikes, night flares and now no American's in CMBB? OK, I'm not playing! BTS please fix or do something.

[Thraka]

Would be nice to just have a game that was russian/german/american supported so you can play any type of scenario..

[killmore]

Actually there was a british fighter squadron in Soviet Union!