Yelnia Stare: help!

[Doug Beman]

I've played this from both sides and I got my butt handed to me each time.

In one of my attempts as the Soviets, German artillery landed in one infantry-assembly area on the first turn, and rendered most of a company combat-ineffective. The rest of my troops refused to go any further than halfway across the map. The 37mm guns managed to KO (or force abandoning) 2 T34s while they were sitting at my map edge. Several times these AT guns would open fire on a tank and plink away for an entire turn without even 1 tank returning fire. At the next orders phase I’d be able to get 3 or 4 tanks to target the gun.

As the Germans, the situation seemed quite reversed. I put the 37mm guns in armor-arc with a maximum range of 250m. One gun opened fire and 8 seconds later ALL 6 T34s were hammering the gun into scrap. The second gun managed to force 1 T34 to abandon and got full or partial penetrations on 2 others to no effect. The German infantry kept opening fire at units quite a ways outside their covered-arc assignments, and would be ground under by the tanks. When I called in artillery, and managed to time it pretty well, it had little apparent effect and I surrendered on Turn 12 or so just to see what effect my defense had had. The Sovs lost a few dozen troops but, more importantly, I noticed that only 1 platoon of conscripts that had been unable to leave the Soviet line of departure. The entire mass of Soviet infantry, including many squads showing that little red light that indicates they'd been in a routed state already, were simply marching right into my defenses.

Any thoughts/advice?

DjB

[bsd]

As germans, it is possible to use your MGs and arty to delay the soviets to such an extent that there ends up being little fighting around the flags. Just place your MGs with good LOS and let them fire from turn 1. With EFOW the tanks will not fire back until at close range, and they tend to wait for the infantry to catch up. I ended up with all the flags because the soviets were still not to the tall pines by turn 26. My MGs and arty had inflicted 100 or so casualites in the meantime. That's one way to do it.

[Zach]

The way I see it, the 81mm mortars have a good enough response time that you can use them a couple times to beat on /disrupts/delay their advancing infantry. I usually targeted a bit before their next intended cover or at the beginning of it. I figured if you get them while they're moving then you're a lot more likely to split up units; send a couple squads packing to the nearest cover apart from their HQ or get their HQ stranded, leaving the other units to break a tad bit earlier. Also, if there was a particular big group of infantry that I saw moving over an open area then I would often try and drect a MG their direction until the artillery came down (the last thirty seconds of a countdown, for example).

The tanks were my problem. Not that many infantry reached my lines, but by the time they did, the tanks had stripped me of most of my support units.

Now playing Stare as the Ruskies, Im having the exact oppisate problem. My infantry are advancing nicely but Im not having a whole lot of luck pinning down exactly where their MGs are. I know the approximate location and harass them with my Maxims, but I want my tanks to have a go at them... Time to see if T34s have binoculars or not I suppose.

Now a curious question of my own...why is it that of the two times Ive started from each side Ive always recveived a prep barrage from the Germans but never from the Russians?

[Chad Harrison]

When I played it as the Germans, I realized that your most powerfull ally is the three MG42's. Put them under the best HQ's possible with the best ? possible. I let them fire under fire arcs the entire time. By the time the Russian troops made it to the front (turn 20+), they were disorganized and unable to take any flags (came really close to the one on my right flank though). If you conserve MG ammo until they get closer, they will be in stable platoons and will have a lot more leadership that way.

Chad

[WWB]

BIG SPOILERS

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I played, and beat, a very competent human (Bil Hardenberger) double blind. Luck was not even completely on my side--one of my ATGs died without firing a shot--and my game was definitely not perfect.

This is how I did it:

Steve gave you a very nice reverse slope position, the Germans must make use of it. I pulled everyone back into the trees, and stripped a squad out of both flanking platoons to form a reaction reserve around the badassed company HQ you have. I also used the fallback foxholes to make semi-hedgehoged positions where I could shift troops around a bit as needed.

I placed one ATG on top of the hill, but a bit back from the crest. The other was placed all the way at the bottom in the forest. It only had LOS to the area immediately in front of my two lefthand flags. Most of my infantry had a max 150m LOS in front of them, with MGs placed in supporting positions with much better fields of fire.

My opponent started pounding my end of the map for turns one through five, so I ended up wasting my arty pretty much. He was firing too many tank rounds right at the spotters, and I decided better got off than dead. That was a mistake in hindsight.

As for my part, I let the MGs open up fairly early, after he had finished pounding me but before he got close. It took him about 15 or 18 turns to push into my positions, mainly because the MGs ran out of ammo on turn 20 or so. I held the rifle fire until he got real close, within 50 or 100m and it was devastating to his first waves. He was compelled to bring up the tanks to deal with my reverse sloped infantry, which brought him into the sights of the ATG. Said ATG crew earned a poshumous Iron Cross for taking out 2 T34s and winging a 4rd before succumbing to return fire.

When the battle ended on turn 27, he was in the process of overruning my position to some extent. I still had some unbroken riflemen, but his 3 remaining tanks (winged one had routed) would have been problematic for me to deal with. I believe I got a Minor, maybe a tactical, holding one little flag each with the big neutral.

Object lessions here:

1) Limit LOS and make the opponent come into your defenses. You have jack for ranged firepower, so why sit there and let him beat you from range.

2) His infantry is basically stuck as long as you have 2 MGs sweeping the field. Ammo conservation is key.

3) Good lateral fields of fire are key. The bottom of the hill position is a great firebase because it covers much of your immediate front while being out of LOS from the enemy's natural firebases.

4) The arty did little good early on. I really should have held it as final protective fire, dropping it on my own positions if necessary.

WWB

[vondeath]

I played against the AI only, as German and with extreme FOW. I placed the two AT guns on opposite sides of the map, in front of the copses of trees where the flags are and with limited FOV(approx. 2-300m). I split the infantry up into 3 platoons with the company HQ in the center copse of trees. 2 platoons were in the trees on the right and left sides of the defense line and the third was in the brush next to the center copse. The two tank hunter units are on the left edge of the map about 50 m from the AT gun emplacement. Each copse of trees had an MG 34 and a mortar emplacement.

All units are hidden for the first two turns. After the second turn, I opened up with the 50mms on the visible infantry units and also targeted the 75mm and 81mm at this time. By the 5th turn, the MGs open up on the infantry and by this time, the front of the tank column is within range of the AT guns, so let them have it. By the 6th turn, the mass of advancing Russian infantry is concentrated on the right side, so I open up on them with the platoon that is hidden in the right copse. By the 9th turn, there are no mortar or artillery rounds left and hopefully you have killed at least 2 tanks. All infantry is opening fire now. Sneak the tank hunter teams toward where the armor is massed. I have no luck with these teams, no matter how well hidden they are, by the time they are in position to strike, they are toast.

Under these conditions, I was able to get a major victory with minimum casualties and loss of only one AT gun(they were out of ammo by then anyways).

No Russian unit got within grenade range of my infantry. There was one T34 operational and one T34 immobilized at the Russian start point, so it was largely ineffective. I was also able to get the remaining tank to retreat by hitting it with HE rounds after my AP rounds were exhausted(Morale failure - it was the HQ tank, too).

Good thing the scenario stopped when it does, my forces were all on "low" and were back to hiding awaiting a close combat situation that never came.

Great demo, can't wait for the game.

[ September 04, 2002, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: vondeath ]

[Redwolf]

Now this is funny

I wasn't going far with careful stuff and everything as the Soviet attacker. I might have won but I ran out of patience.

So I just human-waved everything from the start line right into the right woods and had tanks take care of flank fire from the middle. German surrender.

[Chad Harrison]

I played it again tonight as the Russians and lost only 44 men, causing the German surrender. The first time was a mess! But once you figure out how to deal with the russian troops, it aint so bad. Its all about the T34's!

Chad

Wheres my KV-II!!!

[ARRPEEGEE]

From the russian POV, you've just got to keep hammering away until something breaks, and, though it may seem to take forever, something will, eventually, break.

A good tactic is to designate one main advance area, and use the conscripts as a follow-on exploitation force. I tend to put my good troops away from the main advance area, and let my greens lead the assault. They'll take a beating, but, they'll eventually get there, just keep the advance going with whatever you can. Once you get there, it dosen't take much at all....In a recent game, my 2B Platoon leader overran the MG34 position on the right, and after that, it was all over...

It's just a terrible attack across open ground, but, once you break the line, you can mop them up in just a few turns.

The russian troops kick butt in close quarter battles, so, ..what was the saying.."holding the wolf by the ears", or as a Stalingrad vet put it-

'keep them close, and hold them there...like a...lover'

[ September 07, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: mch ]

[tecumseh]

Remember the Soviet spotter can fire smoke on turn 1.

[Specterx]

LOL - just for laughs I tried the human wave tactic and advanced all my units out of their start locations and just kept throwing my men back at the german lines when they panicked etc.

When the battle ended I had caused 204 german casualties and captured all the flags while loosing only 169 of my own, and 1 tank.

Hmm....

[Frunze]

With such a large quantity of low-quality infantry, a broad-front advance - spread across the whole width of the map - actually worked better for me than anything more sophisticated. With the area-effect of the MGs, it helped to avoid bunching troops. Didn't move a whole platoon at one time, either.

Some of the squads, even the Green ones sometimes (in C&C?) have the Advance command, use it.

MGs and mortars kept back and firing at sound contacts if I had nothing else. Helped suppress 'em some, although I used up a lot of ammo. Mostly saved the tanks for later.

Major victory, although middle flag still disputed at end, low casualties though I don't remember exact number, no tanks lost. One gun actually opened up on my infantry when they got close.

This was my second try, with AI "free to place units" - don't know if that made it easier or harder.

[KG_Jag]

I've played this scenario four times against the AI , three as the Germans. In none of the games has a T-34 ever been taken out. In every case I kept the anit-tank guns in their respective default positions. In my last contest, I kept my anti-tank guns hidden until they opened up on their own. I got two turret penetrations, but not even a single casualty from it. What are the best ways to set up and deploy the German anti-tank defense? P.S. extra points for answering the same question with regard to the Russian anti-tank guns in Citadel (with which I have have had more success). Thanks.

[Specterx]

In Yelnia the key for the Germans is to keep the Soviet infantry at arm's length for most of the scenario with your HMG's while keeping your infantry hidden (the HMG's should remain invisible for the entire game because of camo bonus). Looking at the map from above and from the German side, I placed an ATG near the rear of the leftmost woods so it could cover the field between the left and center woods patches. I put the second one in the brush behind the center woods although placing it in the woods itself would likely work as well. I co-located an HMG with each AT gun and placed the others in similar locations (near the rear of the German positions).

Be sure to keep your ATG's hidden and give them a restrictive "cover arc" command. I have found that frontal and rear shots are the only ones that seem to work. If you can, take out the platoon leader (Regular experience, the others are green). If possible open fire on isolated vehicles and HIDE the guns the next turn, then repeat the process.

Playing this way and using reverse slope positions I got a Total Victory with 214 soviets casualties (48 by one infantry squad in a small pit) and 102 Germans lost.

[KG_Jag]

Thanks for the tips guys. Pulling the infantry back and putting them on reverse slopes resulted in a significant improvement. I moved my anti-tank guns to the flanks. Got good, if not dramaticly better, results. The anti-tank guns got one T-34, and gun damaged a second. My hidden tank killers bagged another. Most important, I held all three flags. The result was a 78% to 28% Major Victory agianst the AI. Now when I'm really good, I'll be able to win with the Germans in the tutorial.