The Newbie Tournaments III

[SuperTed]

Seven Bumps on my head! :eek:

[Leta]

Need Rabbit Foot STOP White4 and me waiting STOP Send please STOP

[White4]

Ditto STOP Brain melting without CM STOP Must play Rabbits Foot now STOP

[SuperTed]

STOP!

[YankeeDog]

Hey all. First of all, my apologies for taking so long to finish Give and Take - I am sure that goes for my opponent (DL) as well. We had to deal with nearly polar opposite schedules, which made getting more than one file exchange done in a day very difficult. We are now done with the scenario. Unfortunately, DL is now on vacation in Hawaii for the week, and I wasn't able to get the final movie to him before he left, so we'll have to wait until next week to see what the score acutally was - I've watched my version of the final turn movie and my best guess is that he pulled out a modest victory - no one was in control of the VL at the end, so it's going to come down to casualties.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two cents in on the whole Give and Take 'controversy'. What follows is an excerpt from the the text of an email I sent ST a few days ago with his reply comments attached. I was away from home and on a very slow computer, otherwise I would have originally just posted to the forum rather than emailing. I played the Germans in G&T and I must admit I found the scenario to be very educational. I also thought it was one of the most interesting and fun scenarios I have played to date. I suspect if I were to play a similar scenario again, my handling of conscript troops would be considerably improved.

----Text of email follows----

> For what it's worth, I agree with you that Give and

> Take may be 'balanced' for more experienced players,

> but not so much for newbie, although I disagree with

> you on the reason, at least in my case.

>

> I was pretty aware of the limitations of conscripts

> going in to the scenarios. In fact, with the

> possible exception of their inability to maintain

> cohesion under light artillery fire when well

> protected, I may have acutally underestimated their

> abilities. What I think made the scenario favor the

> Canadians is a peculiarity of newbie play.

>

> Basically, we newbies make a lot of mistakes. In

> fact, in the scenarios I have played thus far, the

> winner has been determined more by who made the

> least (or the least disasterous) mistakes during the

> match.

Actually, that is a fair assessment of most CM

battles. The difference is that experienced players

make fewer mistakes, but they can be just as costly.

> When you make a mistake with regular or above

> troops, as long as you recognize it early, it's not

> such a big deal - maybe you re route a couple of

> waypoints, and lose maybe a quarter turn to

> reorganizing.

>

> On the other hand, when you make a mistake with

> Conscript troops, it's a disaster. The best case

> scenario is that you recognize the mistake BEFORE

> your hapless Volkssturm are getting fired upon and

> you just have to deal with a 33 sec. command delay

> to get your troops sent somewhere else - but that's

> the loss of half a turn. In a scenario like Give

> and Take, where time is of the essence (it's

> fundamentally a holding action), if you lose a half

> turn here and a half turn there, you're in pretty

> deep water.

>

> If your conscripts actually get fired upon before

> you recognize your mistake, or your mistake creates

> a situation where some units end up out of command,

> then you're really SOL, because then it will take

> more than a whole turn to get your troops to

> initiate a new set of orders. Of course, in some

> situations you can try the withdraw order, but with

> troops as shaky as conscripts, this has it's own set

> of problems.

Yup, the key to playing conscripts is planning ahead.

> Contrast this to the newbie who's playing Elite

> troops (although DL and I haven't quite finished the

> last turn yet, I now know that the Canadian player

> has at least some elite units in G&T). If you make

> a mistake, as long as your units are under command,

> you can get on the road to fixing it in 3 sec. With

> elite troops, the command delays for even out of

> command/pinned troops are very short. You can

> correct your mistakes fairly quickly and easily.

Yes, elite units respond far more quickly than

conscripts. But, in a battle where the points are

expected to be ecen, you can safely assume the side

with the elite troops will have far fewer units. So,

mistakes can be magnified by the fact that each unit

represents a large percentage of the entire force than

a unit in a conscript force would.

> I'm rambling, but I think you get were I'm going -

> it wasn't my unfamiliarity with Conscript troops

> that hamstrung me in G&T, it was my inability to

> recover from mistakes, even if I caught them early

> before they created disasters.

Yup, I see your point. However, there was a common

theme in the reports from the German players who did

not do well. They ordered their troops to run to the

village and the result was a disaster. Not only were

they dealing with conscripts, but they also were

dealing with tired, weary, and even exhausted units.

That is good way to make sure your troops perform

horribly.

A little patience with the conscripts goes a long way.

But, I suspect you already know that.

> I, for one, am very glad that I got to play the

> Germans in Give and Take - I learned some very

> useful lessons for future playing that I do not

> think I would have learned if I had been playing the

> Canadians. For one thing, I now know how to tell if

> I am facing off against elite troops within a turn

> or two of making contact, even if I haven't fully

> spotted any units.

I suspect very few players would intentionally play

with either conscripts or elite troops. So, I thought

this would be a good chance to see both groups in

action.

---- end of excerpt from email ----

A couple of other things that have occured to me since I read this email:

Going into G&T, we had all (or nearly all, I'm not sure about the alternate who were 'called up') played at least one scenario with High-Quality Troops (i.e. Crack & Elite) - Blind Man's Bluff. I suspect many of us (myself included) had never played with conscript troops going in to this scenario.

I learned while playing G&T that another aspect of using Conscript troops is that they are crappy at spotting. I didn't manage to 'fully spot' one of DL's infantry units until very late in the scenario. If I had known I was facing elite troops earlier, I probably would have played the rest of the scenario very differently. I know for a fact that DL knew I had conscripts from pretty early on, so he could adjust his strategy accordingly. As I mentioned in the email, though, now that I've played the whole battle and had a chance to look back on the movies, I've figured out a few tricks for knowing when you're playing against crack/elite troops - they have a a unique 'signature', even when not fully spotted.

So, ST, can you reccommend any other scenarios that use low quality vs. high quality troops?? Maybe not as extreme as G&T, but I thought it was kind of fun.

Cheers,

YD

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

I've figured out a few tricks for knowing when you're playing against crack/elite troops - they have a a unique 'signature', even when not fully spotted.

True, but beware...a devious opponent with Elite/Crack troops can still fool you by playing upon the expectations you have about that very 'signature', whether you've been fully spotted or not.

[ February 26, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[YankeeDog]

[/qb]

[Silvio Manuel]

OK, well you'd have to give them pause commands to make them "look" like lesser quality troops, if you opponent is (gamily!) checking to see how many seconds it takes for them to start moving.

Even that is irrelevant if you start them off by sneaking, since you're opponent won't see when they start to move. Its more relevant when you're at the edge of cover and your opp. can see it all.

The loss of time spent on the pauses can be worth it, if the deception it causes has actual practical value.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...So, ST, can you reccommend any other scenarios that use low quality vs. high quality troops?? Maybe not as extreme as G&T, but I thought it was kind of fun.

Cheers,

YD

YD,

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any. However, your chances of seeing conscripts increase toward the end of the war. That may be a strating point for you.

[SuperTed]

More results from the SuperNewbies:

Witko (German) defeated Hobo (US), 55-38, in Nothing Fancy. This increases Witko's lead to 89-55 in the round.

Congratulations to Witko!

[IronChef4]

is it too late to join the tourney????

[SuperTed]

IC4,

We are nearing the end of Round 2 and all the regular and alternate slots are filled. If you would like to complete a questionnaire, I can add you to the waiting list. If you're interested, email me at tedquincey@yahoo.com.

[Hawk]

I WANT MY POINTS BACK!

Originally posted by SuperTed:

Guys,

I have decided on the best solution for the Give and Take "situation." The scores from Give and Take will be halved for ALL players.

Just kidding, of course! :cool:

However it is slightly ironic that the scores was adjusted because it was felt that the scenario was a little bit weighted in favor of the allied player, and that I who managed to win as German, is loosing points also.

Chris' Panzers are now annihilating me in "Nothing fancy", so I could really have used my 86 points from the previous round.

Oh well, I'll pin my hopes on doing a splendid performance in the third battle!

Chaaaaarge!

Hawk

[ February 27, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Hawk ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Man!

I just pulled a 79 to 21 pt victory in a tcp, 1000pt, mainly infantry, meeting engagement, QB game! Now why can't I do this in the tourney!!

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

Man!

I just pulled a 79 to 21 pt victory in a tcp, 1000pt, mainly infantry, meeting engagement, QB game! Now why can't I do this in the tourney!!

VJ,

Hmmm, maybe my scenarios are too tough for you.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

No, it's the opponents. I think this really isn't a Newbie Tournament. I think it's a big scam of the best players in the CM community with Ted at the head; with the sole purpose of getting a good laugh at my expense.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

No, it's the opponents. I think this really isn't a Newbie Tournament. I think it's a big scam of the best players in the CM community with Ted at the head; with the sole purpose of getting a good laugh at my expense.

VJ,

Shush, you! You're not supposed to know.

Okay, who told him?

[Dave H]

Ted,

Just wanted to mention something to you. When Splash started torching everything in Give and Take with his Badger, I was totally shocked. I had no idea the Canadian troops had an AFV with this capability. Especially with the range it had. I couldn't remember ever seeing it mentioned anywhere on this board before.

Anyway, this morning I thought to do a search on the Badger. I found only one single reference to it outside the Newbie Tournament AARs. And that reference was on the "Worst Looking AFV" thread. So why doesn't the Badger get any love, or even respect, from CM:BO players? I can guarantee my conscript German squads who just missed being hosed in the scenario had faces looking like this :eek: after their encounter!

Congratulations on dredging up a really obscure unit which obviously nobody ever uses or sees in their battles. So what else do you have up your sleeve for the not-quite-so-Newbies? :eek:

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Dave H:

Ted,

Just wanted to mention something to you. When Splash started torching everything in Give and Take with his Badger, I was totally shocked. I had no idea the Canadian troops had an AFV with this capability. Especially with the range it had. I couldn't remember ever seeing it mentioned anywhere on this board before.

Anyway, this morning I thought to do a search on the Badger. I found only one single reference to it outside the Newbie Tournament AARs. And that reference was on the "Worst Looking AFV" thread. So why doesn't the Badger get any love, or even respect, from CM:BO players? I can guarantee my conscript German squads who just missed being hosed in the scenario had faces looking like this :eek: after their encounter!

Congratulations on dredging up a really obscure unit which obviously nobody ever uses or sees in their battles. So what else do you have up your sleeve for the not-quite-so-Newbies? :eek:

Dave,

The fact that nobody ever mentions it is the reason I chose to use it. Many players use the British Wasp because it is cheap and has the same 75 meter range. What many players don't know is that the Badger (I'm from Wisconsin, so I just looove the name ) is essentially the body of a Sherman with a flamer. So, it has much better durability than the Wasp.

You'll just have to wait o be surprised.

[Toran]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

No, it's the opponents. I think this really isn't a Newbie Tournament. I think it's a big scam of the best players in the CM community with Ted at the head; with the sole purpose of getting a good laugh at my expense.

OK, OK...This has been on my head for so long, I can't deal with it anymore. I am a professional CMBO player...It's what I do, it's what I'm good at. I make in the neighborhood of 6 figures just to fire up my HD and kick some newbie-butt. Of course, I don't broadcast it...I'm the quiet guy in the fatigues standing in the corner at the CMBO conventions, chomping on an unlit stogie and keeping my ear open for pick-up games. Real pick-up games where the stakes are high and the money flows. You know, a grand here to break in some shmuck's kid brother, 3 grand there to take a grog-general down a few pegs. Squad-shark. That's me.

A few months ago SuperTed approuched me to join the newbie tourney, kick some butt, have a few laughs. I had a bad feeling I couldn't put my finger on...Sure, the first game went fine - I pulled off a victory. But then something strange started to happen. I started losing. Big time. First one game to kick me out of the tourney. then another on the side. It wasn't pretty. Major losses all. I started questioning myself - where my tactics crap? Was I needlessly sending half-squads into already reconned territory in senseless slaughter?? Was there no end to the artillory and constant thumping of morters...

I woke up in a hotel room in Vegas. Empty Pepsi cans everywhere. I had been knocked out of the Newbie Tourney in the first round. But I picked myself up, looked in the mirror and told myself, "You can win again. By God, you WILL win again." With trembling fingers, I fired up a QB, meeting engagement, 3000 points me, 500 computer...and I kicked butt! Kicked it bad! I'm ready. Ready to fight again. Maybe even ready to enter another tourney...Super-newbies, of course.

[SuperTed]

Toran,

That explains a LOT.

[Toran]

I'm sorry - did I say that out loud??? :eek:

[White4]

There IS an explanation. Its the image of Britney on all those Pepsi cans. Toran was distracted, and you can't concentrate on CM while being distracted like that, and so...

[Splash]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

OK, well you'd have to give them pause commands to make them "look" like lesser quality troops, if you opponent is (gamily!) checking to see how many seconds it takes for them to start moving.

Even that is irrelevant if you start them off by sneaking, since you're opponent won't see when they start to move. Its more relevant when you're at the edge of cover and your opp. can see it all.

The loss of time spent on the pauses can be worth it, if the deception it causes has actual practical value.

Just to post something usefulfor once -- conversely give all your conscripts 63 sec delays at all times and presto they look like future Elite troops!

[Splash]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

OK, well you'd have to give them pause commands to make them "look" like lesser quality troops, if you opponent is (gamily!) checking to see how many seconds it takes for them to start moving.

Even that is irrelevant if you start them off by sneaking, since you're opponent won't see when they start to move. Its more relevant when you're at the edge of cover and your opp. can see it all.

The loss of time spent on the pauses can be worth it, if the deception it causes has actual practical value.

Just to post something usefulfor once -- conversely give all your conscripts 63 sec delays at all times and presto they look like future Elite troops!