Binkie Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 I posted once before about the /1 not firing its 20mm at infantry unless instructed to do so manually, but now I've got two Pumas that are really petrifying my head. I'm moving them into nice sniping positions to aid the war effort and what do they do? Fire the MG. They follow the target with the turret, but only fire the MG. That'll take down Uncle Sam every time, eh? Anyone else seen this or have a work-around? Besides waiting for next turn and choosing "USE MAIN GUN BECAUSE OTHERWISE I'M USING THIS AMMO AS A CARD TABLE?" [ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Binkie ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Does the 20mm have any HE ammo? 20mm firing AP is pretty ineffective against infantry, because the 20mm's ROF is so much lower than a machine gun. If there is no HE ammo, the crew will rely upon the MG for anti-infantry. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted January 3, 2002 Share Posted January 3, 2002 Perhaps they're both fairly low on ammunition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binkie Posted January 4, 2002 Author Share Posted January 4, 2002 The /1 does indeed posess HE ammo, and a lot of it, much more than AP. The Puma tends to get more AP rounds, but both of mine in the QB in question had over 20 rounds of HE left during their "inactivity". My only guess is that perhaps the gunner feels that 200+ meters is ineffective for 50mm HE? But it doesn't make too much sense to me because when I order him to fire it, it IS effective, yielding both suppression and damage. It is a high-velocity gun, almost 900m/sec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertram Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 This has been discussed before (but then what hasn't ). I remember because I was the one that started that one. It seems that is was, and is, standard operating practice for armored verhicles to use only the MG on infantry in the open (some RL tank commanders jumped in at this point and confirmed). This because: it is easier to hit infantry with an MG ('spraying' them, with an HE shell it has to hit the ground right next to them, or will usually pas without harming them); one has more MG ammo then HE; you might need the HE later on, on reinforced positions. So basically the choice in CM is correct. There are two issue's though. One is that all armor uses this rules. For small calibre (20 or 37 mm), fast firing guns this might be incorrect. Second is that the MG is, especially in this role, under modelled. This is dicussed elswhere, sufficent to say that AFV's, with usually plenty of bullets, which they don't have to take along on muscle power, and with a real loathing of infantry running past them to their blind spots, tend to use MG's in long(er) bursts. And exactly this use is undermodelled in CM. Consequence is that infantry in the open can very much ignore tanks, especially when you have several squads. You just walk them past the tanks. The tanks will target one squad, suppress it, and target a next one. Squad one will hit the dirt, and resume walking when the tank targets the next squad. Hopefully this will be fixed in CM2, when MG's will have a second fire mode for this kind of situation. Bertram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 Talking of the machine gun being under modelled, has anyone here played Close Combat II? - The mg onboard an afv was absolutely lethal.. at almost ridiculous ranges.. Taken to the other extreme. Made attacking them with infantry almost impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binkie Posted January 8, 2002 Author Share Posted January 8, 2002 Bertram, thanks for the info, it makes sense, and actually, when I ordered one of the Pumas in question to fire HE at a particular squad which ran across open ground the following turn, it was most definitely a waste of ammo. But my gripe remains. Why? Because in most of the cases I have personally seen, the infantry targets of opportunity have been stationary in woods or scattered trees, and the PSWs still have not fired on them. There was no movement involved. Also, I'm not so sure about the MG-only philosophy encompassing all armor in CM...I have seen plenty of tanks open up with HE on infantry running around several hundred meters away. With good results sometimes, other times not so good. Which gets back to my original point, I think the PSWs act differently from the others. It ESPECIALLY irks me with the /1, as it carries so much HE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 I recently had a PSW pump 20mm HE into a squad for well over 5 turns running, mostly because I had read somewhere of the 'devastating effect of the 20mm on troop morale'. The squad were hiding behind a wall in open ground (therefore stationary and near to the ground - which would maximize the effect of small calibre explosive shells, I presume) and taking the fire in the flank (i.e. not over the wall), with no noticeable effect. Eventually another squad came up and fired a few bursts at the AC. The crew bailed out and made a run for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly: I recently had a PSW pump 20mm HE into a squad for well over 5 turns running, mostly because I had read somewhere of the 'devastating effect of the 20mm on troop morale'. The squad were hiding behind a wall in open ground (therefore stationary and near to the ground - which would maximize the effect of small calibre explosive shells, I presume) and taking the fire in the flank (i.e. not over the wall), with no noticeable effect. <hr></blockquote> It is just the other way round: when units lie (hide or supressed) behind a wall, they get 0% exposure. That is for smallarms, I don't know if that applies to HE as well, but certainly it is a datapoint. Don't waste ammo on units safely behind walls. Yes, that doesn't really mix with the effect AP (not HE) shells into buildings with units in it have - the standalone walls are apparently much more robust. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Eventually another squad came up and fired a few bursts at the AC. The crew bailed out and made a run for it.<hr></blockquote> I don't like fragile units and I have a reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 The PSW 234/1 does carry a high HE ammo load, and a high ammo load period. But its rate of fire is also very high, double what larger caliber guns get. So it is not all that many minutes of fire. You don't really want the crew blowing the HE on everything that skirts past them. You have enough for around 5 minutes of HE hosing, and enough MG ammo for about as much hosing as you want (15 minutes). Normally, you should try to use the MG on any infantry you see, and then use the HE in 1-2 minute sessions on the particular point targets you need to neutralize, right before you need them neutralized (typically MG positions). The firepower of the 20mm HE is not enourmous. It will tend to pin, not to annihilate squads. A minute of fire will usually give a moral result from yellow to pin and may cause one casualty, and a second minute will often panick the target and will usually have hit 1-2 men by then. This is for targets in typical cover - stone buildings will be a bit harder. A single 20mm PSW is going to effectively hose down 2-3 point targets for you, not more. In the sense not of wiping them out but suppressing or breaking them for a few minutes when you need it. (Guns are similar - a minute or two will usually KO them, and they will tend to be to suppressed to reply effectively in the meantime). The MG can fire continually all the rest of the time, just about, and is more suitable for infantry in the open. Incidentally, the 37mm Flak is far more effective as an anti-infantry weapon than the 20mm Flak, and will typically panick its target with a man or two down in the first minute, and often cut a team in half (routed, as well, if they can't get away) in two minutes of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheer Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly: I recently had a PSW pump 20mm HE into a squad for well over 5 turns running, mostly because I had read somewhere of the 'devastating effect of the 20mm on troop morale'. The squad were hiding behind a wall in open ground (therefore stationary and near to the ground - which would maximize the effect of small calibre explosive shells, I presume) and taking the fire in the flank (i.e. not over the wall), with no noticeable effect. Eventually another squad came up and fired a few bursts at the AC. The crew bailed out and made a run for it.<hr></blockquote> I think I know that squad ... 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Does anyone have an opinion on how effective a (Veteran in my case) 234/1 is at attacking running infantry targets? I'm going to use one to interdict foot traffic across a road, and I'm curious as to whether I should plan that most of the OPFOR's troops (prolly 2 platoons worth) will laugh and run past it or what. I have some other support to back up the 234/1 from vehicle-HE, (but no MG) ammo. Thanks in advance, S.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> It is just the other way round: when units lie (hide or supressed) behind a wall, they get 0% exposure. That is for smallarms, I don't know if that applies to HE as well, but certainly it is a datapoint. Don't waste ammo on units safely behind walls. <hr></blockquote> As stated, the PSW was firing ALONG the wall (i.e. was on the same side of the wall), not over it. Surely the 0% exposure does not work in all directions ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 To Silvio - the one coaxial MG on the PSW will not stop a rush across a road by two full platoons. The gun will miss fast moving infantry for the most part. The MG might stop one infantry unit, pin it, or make it go into "in the open panic" mode. If the range is reasonably close - 100 yards or so - with the terrain being road, you might bag a few people and if you are lucky stop a second unit. But it is not going to stop 2 platoons, or break them, and nothing remotely like shoot them all down. A rush by 60-80 men does not stop for light suppressive fires. To stop that kind of rush would take one of the following - an artillery barrage AP minefields a full platoon of infantry in cover, in good order and led, at less than 100 yards range 3-5 crew served weapons or light guns all bearing on a reasonably wide patch of open ground (50-100m wide). This one means HMGs, vehicle MGs, infantry guns, etc. (The PSW would count as 1 of these. 75mm or lower HE would also count as 1 of these). 150mm direct fire artillery maybe 105mm direct fire artillery (perhaps count each as double the "crew served" above) [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: JasonC ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Stop complaining about the combat effectiveness or a scout car you gamey basterd they were not menat for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Does anyone have an opinion on how effective a (Veteran in my case) 234/1 is at attacking running infantry targets? I'm going to use one to interdict foot traffic across a road, and I'm curious as to whether I should plan that most of the OPFOR's troops (prolly 2 platoons worth) will laugh and run past it or what. I have some other support to back up the 234/1 from vehicle-HE, (but no MG) ammo. Thanks in advance, S.M.<hr></blockquote> What JasonC means is you're not going to stop my infantry with one measly little machine gun. Here's hoping I'll introduce your Marders to Ma Deuce and a couple rounds from my zooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Wacky: What JasonC means is you're not going to stop my infantry with one measly little machine gun. Here's hoping I'll introduce your Marders to Ma Deuce and a couple rounds from my zooks <hr></blockquote> Never! After just KO'ing my StuG with a 194 meter Bazooka shot, your luck has run out, O Captain of the Betty Boop lovers. Time to crunch some GIs, umm-mmm. [ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I ran a quick test yesterday, comparing how PSW 234/1 and Panzer IVJ engaged infantry in similar situations. I spotted no difference, both use their main gun and machine guns in very similar ways (too similar to be realistic IMHO...). I haven't been able to observe anything that could indicate the PSW is hesitant to use its gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Never! After just KO'ing my StuG with a 194 meter Bazooka shot, your luck has run out, O Captain of the Betty Boop lovers. Time to crunch some GIs, umm-mmm. [ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]<hr></blockquote> I hope you intend to crunch them with something other than poorly sited 81mm mortar fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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