CMBB Crews and bogging

[Lurkur]

I did a search and this has been mostly discussed before. Still, I bring it up to make a suggestion and to whine a little.

I recently had a StuH get converted from a fierce metal box o' death to a usless target because of bogging problems. It is currently enduring pot shots from a lone, unsupported PIAT unit. I would like to see it possible that a crew could exit or re-enter a vehicle voluntarily as the situation warrented, as opposed to sitting inside waiting to be roasted. Voluntarily leaving the vehical could create a LMG-like unit (assuming it still had mg ammo in the tank), or a crew with lots of ammo.

One other option might be to have another vehicle push the bogged/immobilized tank out of the mud. A potentially risky manuever, but useful if a vehicle your counting on bogs at the start of the game. Once the bogged vehical is pushed x amount, it's status could change from "immobilized" to "bogged," or from"bogged" to "normal". Of course, there should be a greater chance of bogging for the pushing tank.

This seems like it might be more relevant for CMBB because of the horrible mud and winter conditions of the east front.

Can't wait to see those SU-152s from my PanzerBlitz days roll over the ridge!

Lurk

[Gpig]

I like your ideas. I too would like to see an order that allows crews to abandon their weapons/equipment. (Like tank crews, mortar crews, HMG crews etc.)

But as to bogging/immobilization. I think you SHOULD be able to push a bogged vehicle out of the mud, but immobilized means it's broke. No ammound of pushing will help (I think). In fact, when your vehicle goes "immobilized," you hear a little sound like track links breaking. Sprockets flying. Engine dying. (or whatever.)

If your vehicle is bogged, usually the driver will be able to get it out in a couple of turns anyways. So pushing it might help, or it might not. It could even hinder.

Gpig

[Soddball]

I thought it was possible to push immobilised vehicles? Fairly sure, anyway.

[Lurkur]

I was operating under the possibly mistaken assumption that when you went from "bogged" to "immobile" it meant you were hopelessly stuck in the mud, as opposed to having taken actual damage. I guess it is easier than it looks to throw a tread.

[Gpig]

Oh, yes. I meant that pushing an immobilized vehicle will not "mobilize" it. I.E. It won't fix it.

Immobilization is usually accompanied by the "broken" sound. But it could mean anything, I reckon. Hopelessly stuck in the mud pretty much means broken, as well.

Gpig

[Doug Beman]

Immobilize applies to any condition which eliminates a vehicle's ability to move.

It is possible to push immobilized vehicles.

Towing a vehicle was not, IIRC, ordinarily done under immediate fire, as it involved a lot of movement outside the tank to hook up cables, clear suspension, etc.

DjB

[Juardis]

I think that if you're immobilized, you should be able to man the turret mounted MG (if there is one). Even after taking casualties. I mean, if you're in a tank and your TC is wounded and your immobilized, you're not going to sit there wondering what to do. You're either going to vacate the vehicle or pop through the hatch and man the MG. If you can rotate the turret, you'll try that looking for targets, but something like a StuH, I would expect the crew to man their MG.

[aka_tom_w]

I agree that in the case of immobilization it would be VERY nice to have the option to order the crew to abandon ship and get the hell outta there!

Perhaps if NO order can be given the Tac AI can be more interested in saving the crews lives and have them "auto-abandon" immediately up immobilization?

-tom w

[Tarquelne]

Perhaps if NO order can be given the Tac AI can be more interested in saving the crews lives and have them "auto-abandon" immediately up immobilization?

Wouldn't it be difficult for the AI to judge? I'm sure you can think of plenty of cases when you wouldn't want the crew to abandon an immobilized vehicle.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Will it be possable for crews to get out and push their own AFVs? I think I read once about a King Tiger crew pushing their tank for three miles through swamplands.

And what about Jabos? Could they put a rocket down about 5 meters behind a friendly AFV to wedge it free from bogging? I sure hope the crew isn't pushing when this happens though.

[Michael Dorosh]

Dismounted tank crews rarely fought as infantry. I like the voluntary dismount option, but would expect the crew to behave as any other bailed out crew - low ammo, poor spotting ability, and used mostly to garrison "flags", or else run off the map at the first opportunity.

I'd actually like to see bailed out tank crews cost the owning player victory points if not exited from a friendly map edge during play.

[YankeeDog]

At the very least, it would be nice if a bogged/immobilized tank crew could abandon if they were in clear an present danger that they had no real way of countering - for example, a turretless tank (like a StuH) that was bogged and had enemy infantry fast approaching it's flank.

I've wanted infantry heavy weapon crews (HMGs, mortars) to abandon weapons and run when clearly in danger of being overrun for a while now, but I understand that this is a coding issue and not likely to be fixed until the engine rewrite - it seems almost inevitable that the last member of an MG team will either surrender or die as it is right now.

I'm not sure if this should be a player-ordered thing, or if it should be TacAI controlled - maybe both. Maybe the new vehicle crew morale thing in CMBB will take care of this. I've read lots of stories where crews abandoned bogged vehicles in combat even though there was no immediate threat to the vehicle. Ideally, the TacAI should model this too. I bet lots of players would scream about their "perfectly good", albiet bogged, tank being abandoned by a twitchy crew, though.

I'm a bit skeptical about vehicle crews remanning AFVs once they've been abandoned. I'm sure that it did sometimes happen that crews temporarily abandoned and then remanned vehicles. I'm concerned that this could be misused though - It would be no easy feat for a commander to convince a tank crew to remann the bogged shell magnet that they'd just jumped out of a few minutes ago.

Maybe if abandoning crews were always modeled as Broken or worse when they left the AFV this kind of order would be less susceptible to abuse. Then it would take several turns to get them back under command and into the vehicle, and even afterwards they'd be pretty twitchy and likely to abandon again.

As to pushing bogged/immobilized vehicles, I've never tried to to this, but IRL there would be a VERY high chance that the pushing vehicle whould also get bogged and then both would be stuck - In order to push a stuck vehicle, you'd end up driving right into the mud pit it just created in the process of getting stuck, and so would be very susceptible to ending up in the same pickle.

I guess if that bogged vehicle were just a few meters away from LOS to an important piece of ground you might want to try this, but most of the time my guess is that the risk of immobilizing both vehicle would be too high to make this a worthwhile tactic. As such, this is very low on the CM improvements priority list for me.

[Michael Dorosh]

I've actually pushed a bogged vehicle in real life; our company sergeant major bogged an M35 2 - 1/2 ton truck in Wainwright one weekend; we tried to winch it but that didn't work, so I drove uphill, and slowly tapped the back bumper of the CSM's truck with the front bumper of the M35 I was in. I think after two hits, the other truck was unstuck, none the worse for wear.

What that has to do with WW II tracked vehicles, I have no idea.

[KnifeForkSpoon]

Ahhhhh Wainwright.

*shudder*

I remember it well.

KFS

Edited because, well . . . just thinking about that place unsettles me.

[ June 01, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: KnifeForkSpoon ]

[Panzer Leader]

I actually believe that it was both possible and COMMON to tow and/or repair treads while in direct combat. I have read various accounts, not the least of which is "Panzer Aces" in which there are multiple descriptions (about every battle as a matter of fact) where a tank is disabled and either a friendly tank tows it a few hundred yards out of direct fire, or whether the cre IN DIRECT FIRE, attempts to fix the tracks.

In fact, in the above mentioned book, there are a few cases where a tank's treads were repaired within only a couple of minutes, usually by the commander, radio-man and driver working in concert. Reading these accounts gives you an amazing picture of how combat occurs.

I am not so sure it is within CMs scope though. Fo one, it sounds like it would be a real bitch to program, and two, five minutes is still a long time, and if I saw an enemy crew trying to repait their tank, you can bet I wouldn't give them five minutes of peace

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by KnifeForkSpoon:

Ahhhhh Wainwright.

*shudder*

I remember it well.

KFS

Edited because, well . . . just thinking about that place unsettles me.

Well, I hear Dundurn is a lot worse, but fortunately I haven't had the pleasure. Come to think of it, Wainwright is preferable to Suffield if only for the fact the former actually has trees. All of my trips to Suffield have involved the officer's mess of the British Army Training Unit, with one exception - and that was a field exercise where we moved around by helicopter, so that was worth it in itself.

[Tarquelne]

As to pushing bogged/immobilized vehicles, I've never tried to to this, but IRL there would be a VERY high chance that the pushing vehicle

OT, but a guy I knew in college had a very funny story to relate about half a dozen vehicles (APC-types of some sort, I don't remember what they were) getting Immobilized during a training exercise.

IIRC, it was at the bottom of a steep Slope in Scattered Trees (the CM terms seem apt). I have no particular reason to believe the story fictional, but it's hard to imagine how someone could have made up a story with more comic potential. (If you like slapstick.)

The 2nd through 4th vehicles all got stuck trying to move the Immobalized vehicles, the 5th was Abandoned because it had been driven too close to the top of the Steep Slope and was in danger of rolling, and the 6th ran into a Marsh and was Immobilzed as it "tried to run for help."

The first vehicle broke down when it hit a tree too hard.

(This might be something usefull to mention in the "Attack - what's harder..." thread, as a testimonial to the dangers of overconfidence.)

[ June 01, 2002, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Tarquelne]

DP.

[ June 01, 2002, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Tarquelne]

Argh! I hit "Reply with Quotes", not Edit!

[ June 01, 2002, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Tarquelne]

*&^%%$! Twice!

I blame the new color scheme.

[ June 01, 2002, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]