Wisbech_lad Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Having played around with Sturmtigers (haven’t we all?) I have come to the following conclusion. They are an in joke from BTS on the “ubergermanarmour” myth. I mean, buy some of the things. Roll them slowly towards the enemy (assuming no mud). Kill all enemy. The 380 mm projectile seems very overmodelled, both for accuracy and blast (I seem to get hits with what is a rocket fired mortar shell at 700m on individual tanks. The blast effect seems akin to a neutron bomb) And the tanks appear to bounce everything off them (tho’ they don’t like flame tanks up close) For an externally loaded gun, firing rates are actually quite fast, and can even reload if a crew member has been killed. So my supposition. Given there was no real data on the tanks, BTS decided to code a true “uber” tank, invulnerable, almost invincible (unless its muddy…) to show how boring and “broken” such a vehicle is, in gaming terms. Working on a operation called “Elite Sturmtigers take Moscow” where you drive a company of elite sturmtigers through just about the entire Russian Army, until a large patch of marsh/ soft ground stops you getting into Moscow. So, are Sturmtigers BTS jokey response to the “please fix or do somefink” crowd? I think we deserve an answer… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 1 Barbarian can beat one Roman, but 100 Romans can defeat 1000 Barbarians.... Try some Sturmoviks or a few nimble T-34s against those Sturm Tigers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEIPER#1 Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 your Operation is the joke here! :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: They are an in joke from BTS on the “ubergermanarmour” myth.They were very heavily armored and gunned, so in that respect they were a lot like the game portrays them as, but like most German "superarmor", they were heavy, slow, had high ground pressure and used too much fuel, difficult to maintain,and the gun was probably a bit too excessive for its purpose. Only 18 were ever made, and none actually made it to the Eastern Front (not further than Warsaw anyway). One of the reasons you see them used so much in CMBB, apart from the fun factor, is that here we don't have to worry about the logistics of maintainin such a beast; we only have to consider the idea for one tactical combat, which doesn't really bring the weaknesses of the Sturmtiger to front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishu Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Externally loaded? "The Sturmtiger was armed with a short-barreled 38cm Raketenwerfer 61 L/5.4, breech-loading rocket launcher/mortar" Powerful? "In January 1945, a single round from a PzStuMrKp 1001 Sturmtiger reportedly destroyed three American M-4 Sherman tanks located in a targeted village." "The main armament could be traversed by hand 10 degrees to the left and right and elevated from 0 to a maximum of 85 degrees" 85 degrees! Each rocket was comparable to about 250kg bomb. (125kg explosives - note: bombs aren't filled up to last bit of weight with explosives, but german bombs are like 55% explosive/weight) [ October 28, 2002, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Fishu ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sttig.htm has some info and a few pics of this beast, and also says that it's a breech-loader, so which one is correct? If it's externally loaded, it should say muzzle-loaded, and not breech-loaded. The crane was apparently used to load ammunition into the vehicle, but not into the actual gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: They are an in joke from BTSI would tend to agree. Perhaps we can ask BTS to change the crew bitmap for the Sturmtiger crew to green aliens with tentacles, or perhaps some Zombie Nazis from Return to Castle Wolfenstein? I mean, some people could actually mistake it for being modelled after reality now! "Eat hot plasma, alien scum!" Seriously though. I do think it is just a bit on the silly side, at least the effect of the shell. Sure it was a big gun, but it was no wonderweapon like it is portrayed in the game right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Just curious, How did BTS/BFC arrive at the blast value of 2116? Sincerely, Charl Theron [ August 23, 2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted October 28, 2002 Author Share Posted October 28, 2002 My bad on the breech loading thingy, didn't realise the crane was for loading in the rounds, not reloading the gun. I realise the whole logistics/ combined arms thing. But having a bunch of elite sturmtigers stuck infront of a patch of soft ground after crunching thru a few batallions sort of amuses me, like the cartoon of daleks faced with stairs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 My 0.02 blast value : I think that we have here a "treshold effect" with CM balst values... I mean, in the game 1 kg of explosive = 20 blast (approx...). The modelled effect of blast is then OK in the game for anything 0.1 to 25 kgs (50-150 mm). But when you extrapolate to a 100+ kg thingie, with a theorical blast of 2000+ result is just wrong and not realistic... Strangely the Church AVRE with its "petard" did'nt have this problem in CMBO, blast value was much lower than expected with shell size . Why has this not been made in CMBO I Don't know :confused: About the accuracy here again the Mörser seems overdone : as another comparison a CMBO AVRE was barely able to hit a LARGE BUILDING at 300 m !! :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 The Churchill AVRE and the Sturmmörser Tiger are hardly good comparisons. The AVRE fired a 40lb (18kg) 290mm mortar round with a max range somewhere between 80 - 120yds. The Sturmmörser fired a 345kg (135kg of which was TNT) 380mm rocket with a range somewhere between 4600 - 5700m. Look Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 So, are Sturmtigers BTS jokey response to the “please fix or do somefink” crowd? I think we deserve an answer… Point taken, but I'd highly recommend basing your argument on hard data about the vehicle and its weapon system, not your (patently incorrect, alas) suppositions. Your post will get more mileage that way and perhaps make a useful contribution to the game. BTS seems open to correction when people can provide them with accurate data that contradicts something in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by von Lucke: The Churchill AVRE and the Sturmmörser Tiger are hardly good comparisons. The AVRE fired a 40lb (18kg) 290mm mortar round with a max range somewhere between 80 - 120yds. The Sturmmörser fired a 345kg (135kg of which was TNT) 380mm rocket with a range somewhere between 4600 - 5700m. Look HereOoh, my apologies, I thought the AVRE shell heavier than that (I assimilated both due to comparable 290-380mm calibers... erroneous !) Anyway, the 345kg shell of the SturmMonster is awfully deadly. I didn't personally witness the effects of a comparable 250kg aerial bomb, but it *looks* overdone ... And if it was a rocket shell the accuracy should be just awful, as rockets were in that time, no ? [ October 28, 2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Pascal DI FOLCO ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarquon Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: I mean, in the game 1 kg of explosive = 20 blast (approx...). The modelled effect of blast is then OK in the game for anything 0.1 to 25 kgs (50-150 mm). But when you extrapolate to a 100+ kg thingie, with a theorical blast of 2000+ result is just wrong and not realistic... Strangely the Church AVRE with its "petard" did'nt have this problem in CMBO, blast value was much lower than expected with shell size .I believe the AVRE fired a shaped charge for use vs. bunkers, so the blast from the explosion was (partly) directional. This could explain a reduced blast value for this shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 So how do the in-game effects of the shell compare with that of a 500lb bomb? It sounds like they should be pretty similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Fishu wrote: Powerful? "In January 1945, a single round from a PzStuMrKp 1001 Sturmtiger reportedly destroyed three American M-4 Sherman tanks located in a targeted village." Fishu forgot to mention that the shell was later found resting on the hull of the last Sherman. A popular rumor at the time held there was a hidden faust in a sewer drain nearby, but no evidence was ever established to confirm the theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 The Sturmtigers were added to CMBB for fun (being of no real historical value to the game) but not as a joke. It's a loosing game to argue with BFC about armor protection. It's my impression that they don't model a vehicle's armor to match popular perceptions. They type the real numbers and angles in and let the chips fall where they may. The Sturmtiger was just that tough. Here's my opinion about the shell's excessive blast. Since the munition was originally designed as a depth charge mortar that would imply a LOT more explosive and a lot less shell casing than a conventional round. That means more bang for the buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 I think the Sturmtiger's blast power is perfectly in line with how CMBO handled weapons of a similar size..... The Sturmtiger should be compared to the 14" naval guns of CMBO: </font>380mm is about 15", naval gun 14". Advantage Sturmtiger.</font>Sturmtiger shell weighed 345kg or about 760 pounds. Sturmtiger shell was low-velocity so could have a relatively high explosive content by weight. Say 20%, so about 150 pounds of HE. 14" HE naval shell weighed about 1500 pounds but only about 10% was HE, for about 150 pounds of HE. Push but might be in Sturmtiger's favor if its shell had higher explosive content.</font>Sturmtiger is low velocity so shell explodes on surface. 14" naval gun is high velocity so shell explodes underground. Advantage Sturmtiger.</font>So, as a rough guess, the Sturmtiger's shell should be at least as deadly as a 14" shell from CMBO, maybe even more nasty. Observed effects seem to bear this out, in terms of casualty radius and hundreds of troops mown down by a single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishu Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Lumbergh: So how do the in-game effects of the shell compare with that of a 500lb bomb? It sounds like they should be pretty similar.Actually, by british terms, the 380mm round would be equal to 700-750lbs bomb. British bombs has less explosives / weight than german bombs. it's something in the range of 35% vs. 55% of the weight for the advantage of german bombs. Bullethead, 125kg explosives in the 345k shell, thats over 270lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 All this prattle about the Sturmtiger overlooks the real gem in the collection: the Brummbar. It's common, fairly cheap, and does a real number on virtually any building and fortification it can reach. Using one is a bit more historically reasonable IMHO. And they're fun to watch as well. Now if we Russkis could only get the tracked 203mm howitzer thingie for those nasty street brawls... :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 The commonplace (read: zero rarity% increase) ISU-152 platoons aren't too shabby. :eek: [ October 28, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 The reload time should be around 15 minutes, not 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfedoroff Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: The 380 mm projectile seems very overmodelled, both for accuracy and blast (I seem to get hits with what is a rocket fired mortar shell at 700m on individual tanks. The blast effect seems akin to a neutron bomb.......................... ------------------------------------------------- For what it's worth,.... "Enemy troop concentrations around the road junction northwest of Kirchhellen were a rewarding target. Hauptman Adam, who led the 1st Battalion of the Panzer Regiment, reported the following after the war: Four Storm Tigers were subordinated...to me...Since, due to the rocket propulsion, the projectiles left a long, meteor-like smoke trail behind them and thereby gave away the firing position, the position had to be changed after every round. The first deployment was in the Dorsten-Kirchhellen area. After the evacuation of Kirchhellen, we took up position in the forest north of Feldhausen....We had a good view of the fork in the road north of Kirchhellen and observed that strong American combat units were assembled there and had come to a standstill. With all four Storm Tigers, a salvo...was fired. The effect...was hard to comprehend in those days. Vehicles flew through the air, and tanks flipped over like cardboard boxes. Of course, we had to immediately leave our position, but it took hours for the enemy to recover." Page 429 from "From Normandy to the Ruhr: With the 116th Panzer Division in World War 2" by Heinz Gunther Guderian I haven't tried the Sturms out yet but I'm going to now! Sincerely, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 There was some debate on Sturmtiger reload rates when it first showed up in the game Beta. It boiled down to a high of 5 minutes between rounds and a low of three. I believe CMBB stuck with the three minutes per round ROF. Reload rates in CM are tricky anyway. The game doesn't factor in the loader scrambling on his hands and knees to retrieve rounds after the ready-rack is depleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameroon Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by White Phosphorus: The reload time should be around 15 minutes, not 2.Where are the figures saying it should be 15 and not 2? I'm not saying that isn't true, but you've given me nothing to believe that it is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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