Clash Of The Titans! (part 2)

[Ghost of the 90th]

1st off thanks Treeburst, you are doing a helluva job. Very impressive.

Now to my observations:

4 Attacks out of 7. 3 I am defending the other I am attacking verse Swamp. DOH!

Don't put money on me.

Guess we were not into Meeting Engagements. People are not into equal points verse equal skill, really to bad.

Attackers should win every time. An attacker who loses in this tourney, did not belong here. Figure out who is doing the most attacking and crown them the winner, do we need to continue?

Do points matter or just winning the game? If points don't matter then defenders are porked. People are kidding themselves if they think they are going to out right "win" these defenses against the assembeled talent here.

So my question is, with all these ATT/Def what are the scoring we are using. If it aint points, we may need to revisit scoring.

ATT/DEF no fan here. Attacker big advantage.

Ghost358th

[Broken]

Ghost,

Read the earlier posts on the scoring system. As a defender in, say, Fionn's scenario, your score is compared against the other three defenders, NOT the attackers. If you have the best defenders score, you get 100 points. If you do half as well as the best defender, you get 50 points, and so on. Same scoring system for the attackers.

[Ghost of the 90th]

Thanks Broken.

Ya I could never bring myself to wade through that morass from the earlier posts. I just read it all finally.

I now understand. It does not matter if the defender wins, draws or ties verse his attacker. What matters is how he does relative to others in his same position (other defenders same scenario).

Interesting. Attackers need to win big to gain points, as they are going against other attackers.

Ok, I am sold.

This will be a game of minimizing your loses and maximizing your vics. Who ever does this the best wins the tourney.

Ok, I finally got it.

Lets start placing wages. I will put big cash on Wreck. He is the best at minimizing loses that I have ever played.

Ghost358th

[ July 02, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Ghost of the 90th ]

[Treeburst155]

Any editing involving free things like fausts, leader bonuses, ammo loads, etc. is a waste of your time since I will be repurchasing the forces for both sides. All these things will return to random/default.

Broken has it right. If you are doing lots of editing I need fairly clear step by step instructions. Purchase this, delete this and this, etc..

Major Taktik, your setup zones are no problem as they are symmetrical, one side's zone to another. When one player sees his zone he will know the other player's zone.

Ghost,

Welcome to the Nabla scoring system! Your tourney score for a scenario is based solely on your performance as it compares to others who played the same scenario from the same side. Imbalance is not really an issue.

Deathdealer,

I will make the maps. The setup zone thing is not a problem. Perhaps I will change the dimensions just a little to keep the scenario designer guessing when he's playing his own scenario. That's a good idea.

No purchasing of half squads!

Treeburst155 out.

[ July 02, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Deathdealer]

I did my troops selections and sent them to Treeburst - I hope everything is understandable in that zip-file ... if not please email me or post here ASAP as I'm soon off for a fortnight consulting some forest daemons etc

[Wreck]

I have been buying stuff. No problems until I get to Major Taktik's scenario.

Clearly the intent here is to disallow the player things other than tanks. I assume this includes disallowing buying any "support" other than the permitted light AT weapons. But there is slight ambiguity. Many companies (if bought whole) come with mortars and/or MGs. Is it permissible to keep those?

Also, as I read it the limits on arty mean that you can buy, at maximum, 2 observers, neither of which can be larger than 81mm. So you could buy 75mm observers if you wanted, yes?

[Treeburst155]

On Major Taktiks scenario,

81mm or smaller for the two observers.

Mortars and MGs that come with companies are OK.

All points must be spent on medium/heavy armor other than what is specifically listed in the special rules.

Treeburst155 out.

[MajorTaktik]

Sorry, Wreck and anyone else that is uncertain about my battle format. It is intended to be an armor battle obviously. Heavy/Light TFs meeting on a big and relatively open map. The setup zones are small areas in opposite corners of the map. Therefore, expect lots of manuever. Also, the flags are small and there are only three of them. Again, the purpose is to feature tank on tank tactics that is why there are no emplaced guns and limited hand-held AT; 1 per plt.

Also, is everyone picking forces for all 7 games at once, or only a few at a time so the games can be played staggered? What were you expecting, Treeburst? Did you want them all at once or can we send them when that particular game starts? I will only be able to play 2-3 of these games at a time max, right now, so I would like the ability to adapt to things as the games come along and not be tied to purchases done now when I may want to change things up a bit later on.

Craig

[Treeburst155]

Each of the 28 games will take some time to put together. I have to verify that all the purchase rules were obeyed by both sides, purchase the troops, and secure the scenario. For this reason the scenarios will just trickle out as time goes by. IOW, you guys just send in your purchases. I'll start sending out scenarios when both side's purchases are in for a particular game, and the scenarios are finished. I still have three to go, and may go back to a couple of them.

If you do not wish to begin a scenario that I send you, just inform that particular opponent that you wish to delay the game for awhile. We'll just plug away at this one. You guys work on purchases, and I'll work on scenarios. No time pressure, just steady progress.

I will have the scenarios finished by this weekend. If I have some matching purchases from you guys, I'll do my thing and send that game(s) out. If we all just keep up a comfortable, steady pace things will happen in good time.

I suppose I should email you guys a contact list of all opponents and their addresses, along with a copy of the final schedule too. All this will happen.

Treeburst155 out.

[MajorTaktik]

Excellent! You Da' man, Treeburst!

Hopefully, I will have the purchases for Swamp's Format done soon so Broken and I can get things started before I have to leave for two weeks mid-July (though it is not definate, yet). It may take a while, though, for this first purchase. I am puzzled how to fit the tanks I want within 1000 points. Damn! Brits, too. I have no luck with Brits

WOOOHOOOOO! Seriously, the formats look great! It will be loads of fun playing these games.

[Deathdealer]

Treeburst, did you get my selections ?

Just making this sure as I'll be soon on my way...

[Treeburst155]

Sorry, Deathdealer, I missed your post. Yes, I have your troop selections; but I don't have any from the others.

I have now completed five scenarios. I decided I just couldn't stand a couple of the auto-generated maps, so I wiped everything clean except for the elevations and started from scratch. I may go back and do this to all of them. The maps are fairly big however. It takes me two days to do one.

The scenarios remaining will not auto-generate very nicely at all. They will require significant human work. I'm enjoying it, and I think it is worth it. After all, this IS the "Clash Of The Titans".

Being realistic, I'd say I will be ready and waiting for purchases by July 21st, scenarios finished and final managerial tasks complete. I will be on vacation from July 11-18. Your goal then, is to try and have purchases in my mailbox by the July 20 weekend.

Treeburst155 out.

[MajorTaktik]

Hmmm. The 20th is a no go for me. At that time, I will be sweating buckets and suffering from TAC-ATTACKS.

I leave the 12th and will be gone till the 27th. Sorry if this slows things for my first opponents, namely Broken and GravesRegistration.

Craig

[Fionn]

1. Why do we have to have all purchases in on the 20th if we aren't having to start ALL games at the same time?

2. Weekend 20th is a no go for me. RL committments.

[Treeburst155]

You do not have to have your purchases in by the 20th. That is just the date I intend to be ready to start purchasing and passing out games. Whenever I get the purchases from both players for a game, I will send the game out.

I have 28 games to purchase for. Each game will take at least 20 minutes to get ready (check for compliance with rules, purchase, secure, send with passwords. I will only be able to pass out a few per day anyway. Take your time and do it at your convenience. Just know that I will be ready to deal with purchases by the weekend of the 20th.

Treeburst155 out.

[Fionn]

K, TY. Treeburst.

[Atlas_TH]

This should be fun to follow, fellas. Hope you can complete before CM:BB come out...

[Broken]

I also have a question about MajorTaktiks scenario. Are Wirbelwinds, Ostwinds, HMCM8s, Chaffees, etc., considered to be outside the ten vehicle limit for light vehicles?

Also, are aircraft allowed in scenarios where not expressly prohibited?

[K Jonsson]

Will you all go through with this tournament even if CMBB is released before its finnished? I sure hope so. Actually I think that it would be the perfect way to celebrate the end of CMBO, assuming of course that most people start playing CMBB instead. This might not happen, but with all the improvements we all have been waiting for it probably will.

It might even be better (in some ways) that CMBO wil be starting to fade away. Why, you may ask. Because if people start playing primary on the eastern front noone will ever invest (probably not) the time to become experts in CMBO. That means that the winner of this tournament will be the world champion of CMBO with no realistic chance of ever being challenged and losing the title. How does that sound? Maybe someone can persuade BFC to give out a diploma. Maybe a medal? His/her name in the game?

It might be fun to do this again just before we are going away to the desert. You will once again have a long time (two years+?, I hope less, but...) to find out who the best players are, and once again after the smoke has cleared there will be only one player left.

/Kristian

[MajorTaktik]

Originally posted by Broken!:

I also have a question about MajorTaktiks scenario. Are Wirbelwinds, Ostwinds, HMCM8s, Chaffees, etc., considered to be outside the ten vehicle limit for light vehicles?

Also, are aircraft allowed in scenarios where not expressly prohibited?

When I said, light tanks/vehicles, I meant it to represent a recon element to the main force of tanks, not WW and OS. Not sure, if I said no planes, but incase I didn't, then no planes are allowed in my scenario.

I will compile a complete list and post it for Treeburst so things will be clearer.

[MajorTaktik]

Originally posted by Broken!:

I also have a question about MajorTaktiks scenario. Are Wirbelwinds, Ostwinds, HMCM8s, Chaffees, etc., considered to be outside the ten vehicle limit for light vehicles?

Also, are aircraft allowed in scenarios where not expressly prohibited?

Treeburst,

Here is an amendment to my scenario to clear up a few things.

- 8-10 light tanks/vehicles will be restricted to: Greyhounds, Stuarts, Chaffees, Daimlers, Pumas, Lynx, psw 234/3, spw 250/9

- No Ostwinds or Wirbelwinds

- No planes.

[MajorTaktik]

Also, it looks as if I WON'T be going away this July, so I will be able to get some purchases in for this weekend. At least the first two.

[Treeburst155]

Major Taktiks,

Scenario clarifications noted.

Your scenario may present some problems. With so few VL points, it is possible that one or both players would choose to be very cautious and non-aggressive. It's entirely up to you however. It's your scenario. I just thought I'd bring up the possibility.

To All,

If a unit is not mentioned in the purchase rules for a scenario, it is allowed. Note that Major Taktiks has amended his rules above.

I have completed six of the scenarios. The last two are the most time consuming and are well started. I started virtually from scratch on a few of the scenarios that the auto-generator just couldn't do a decent job on. Others are more or less auto-generator default.

I will be gone from July 11-18. When I get back I will send you all a contact list and the schedule of games for your convenience. This info is currently available on this thread, as are the purchase rules and scenario descriptions.

As of right now I have only received purchases from Deathdealer.

This tourney will not be cancelled if CMBB is released while it is underway. The only thing that will cause the tourney to fold up is if I have dropouts that cannot be replaced by another Titan. IOW, lack of interest.

In order to score the tourney with the Nabla system, all games must be completed. If somebody drops out, all his completed games count; but all the incomplete games must be restarted with the replacement. IOW, the replacement is saddled with his predecessor's record. We just can't wait for a mid to late stage replacement to play all the games.

Needless to say, dropouts in this tourney can have a devastating effect. The later the dropout, the less likely we are to find a replacement. No replacement means no scoring means no champion. Unless you get hit by a train, you should not drop out of this tourney. We have set no time limit, so there is little pressure should Real Life intrude for awhile.

Be a good sport! Finish the tourney and do your best to the very end, even if you think you are out of the running. Titans never quit! Besides, all final scores will remain secret until the end. This means you will not really know how well you are doing compared to the others.

As distasteful as the subject is, you guys may want to discuss gamey tactics. Gamey force purchases are covered by the purchase rules (also some gamey tactics). I will not hear complaints about gamey play! I expect this will be a highly competitive tourney. Considering this, the temptation to stretch the game engine will be great. Questionable tactics will be rationalized. Be prepared!

I'll see you on the 19th.

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by MajorTaktik:

Here is an amendment to my scenario to clear up a few things.

- 8-10 light tanks/vehicles will be restricted to: Greyhounds, Stuarts, Chaffees, Daimlers, Pumas, Lynx, psw 234/3, spw 250/9

You should probably specify whether Stuarts include the M8 HMC or not.

[Broken]

MajorTaktik,

Thanks for your answers, but they bring up a few more questions (I am a picky bastard, heheheheh):

SPAs (Hummels, Wespes, Sextons, Priests, and HMCM8s) are light tanks, medium tanks, or excluded?

I am assuming mortars and MGs are OK if they come with an infantry company, but can they be purchased separately?

Can three platoons be purchased in place of one company?

Do you mean to exclude all the following light vehicles?

Infantry carriers with squad capacity: M3 series, M5 series, SPW 251/1, Ram Kangaroo, truck, Gun Tractor

Scout cars: M3A1, M20, T8, Humbar, White, MMG carrier, Universal carrier, Stuart Kangaroo, SPW 250/1

Armoured cars: PSW 234/1

Other Unarmoured vehicles: Jeep, Kubelwagen,

German Assault HTs: SPW 250/8, SPW 251/9

Flame and Mortar vehicles: OK, OK, one would need a truly evil mind to figure out a viable use for these in an armor battle.

It seems to me that the first 3 catagories (infantry carriers, scout cars, armoured cars) would be useful in the type of battle you have in mind, if kept within the 10 light vehicle max.

Fionn:

Did you mean to allow airplanes in your scenario?