Light Terrain and LOS

[PeterX]

But... you would have to stand to engage a target through it. MGs would be ruled out entirely, and shooting in the standing position isn't exactly the most comfortable or accurate way to fire.

You know, I hadn't thought about that but it's true! How the heck does a MG team fire out of standing wheat? Maybe at the very edge, but conceptually it's risible.

[ October 05, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Broken]

I looked at this in more detail. As noted earlier, "low" terrain (brush, wheat, rocky, rough, wall, hedge, steppe, cemetary) has no effect on LOS. Once an infantry unit is a few meters into these terrain types, additional intervening "low" terrain has no effect on spotting. For example, if the spotting unit is an unbuttoned T34 and the hiding unit is a regular, in-command, no stealth bonus, no foxhole infantry squad in summer wheat on a clear day, the spotting distance is about 130 meters - regardless of how much or how little low terrain there is between the two units. If the spotting unit is an infantry platoon, the spotting distance is about 110 meters. Is it realistic for a tank to spot infantry hiding in tall wheat at over 100 meters?

It may be that the model for low terrain is simply different from CMBO, maybe a better one. Tanks should be able to see over wheat and bushes. One source of confusion is the manual which states for brush... "provides good concealment and restricts LOS", when, in fact, LOS is not effected at all.

Another terrain effect which is a little mysterious is the movement rates of infantry through wooded terrain. Infantry move, run and get tired at exactly the same rate through clear terrain, scattered trees, woods, tall pines and even mud. Again the manual is a source of confusion. For tall pines, it states that "Movement through tall pines is faster than through woods ... due to less underbrush" when, in fact, neither of these terrain types effects infantry movement at all. Maybe the trees are different in Russia, but I don't find it easy to run in the woods or in mud.

Would BFC care to comment? I don't mean to knock the game, CMBB is currently the best in it's class.

[Treeburst155]

Are you sure about the infantry running and TIRING at the same rate in different terrain? I will have to test this again.

As for the LOS issue, we are getting zero feedback from the LOS line. What is the LOS distance through brush in CMBB? Nobody knows! The LOS line won't tell us. Conducting spotting tests with units involves several variables, probably a random factor too; and spotting is not the same thing as LOS anyway.

We're not talking about spotting here IMO. We're talking about how far I can see through brush. IOW, how far is the last bush in the brush, that I can see, from my position. How far can I look through brush, and still have a slight probability of spotting the enemy IF he were there.

Treeburst155 out.

[ October 05, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Broken]

Treeburst,

I believe the LOS line is telling us there is no degradation of LOS through brush, wheatfields etc. I was testing to see if it mattered how far into a wheatfield a hiding infantry squad was located in terms of spotting it. At a given distance between the spotting and hiding units, it makes no difference how much wheatfield is in between the units, as long as the hiding unit is not on the very edge of the wheatfield.

It terms of how fast running units tire, I was only talking about woods, pines, scattered trees and mud. Running up a hill still tires infantry real fast. Snow, deep snow, brush, rough, etc., still slow infantry down. The exception seems to be trees (and mud).

[Treeburst155]

Regarding LOS and spotting, based on your observations, it appears there is indeed no degradation of LOS (or spotting distance/chance)with distance through a particular non-tree terrain type. This is exactly what the LOS tool is telling us. If true, there is no need for brush, grain etc other than perhaps bogging and movement/tiring; which BTW, I have not yet looked at tonight. I will do that now.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

I ran some regulars from the same platoon through scattered trees, woods, tall pines, and open terrain, one squad in each terrain type. All moved at the same speed and had their fatigue level degrade at the same pace. The most important fact here is that the squad in the woods kept pace with the squad in open terrain and tired at the same rate too. I did not conduct the same test under muddy conditions.

Broken's test and mine do not contradict Aussie Jeff's test from yesterday. I just reread how and what he tested again.

So, we have an LOS problem in light terrain that does appear to affect spotting, and a movement problem in trees. Broken's original post to this thread still stands as true.

I shouldn't say we have a problem with the running through trees. We have a DIFFERENCE from CMBO here, and the problem may be in the manual which contradicts what we see in the game. The LOS thing is a problem (bug) I think, and again contradicts what the manual says.

Treeburst155 out.

[ October 05, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[jamgra]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

We're not talking about spotting here IMO.

We might be...

How far can I look through brush, and still have a slight probability of spotting the enemy IF he were there.

But isn't this a spotting issue right here? I still haven't received the game, and as such am unable to run tests, but from the demo alone and from looking at tests run in previous posts, I noticed two, IMHO, very likely bugs.

1.) As far as I can tell, the LOS isn't affected by features such as wheat, steppe grass, brush, rough, even open terrain (which it is supposed to deteriorate somewhat over as well, correct?).

Not only does the LOS line tool remain bright blue over fairly long distances of said terrain features, but units can fire with a greater accuracy into, out of, and across these terrain features than one would think (I couldn't even see, let alone hit a target 20m into a wheat field). Some of these terrain features should block LOS to a fairly large extent, should they not? A wheat field in summer, I should expect, would block LOS completely within a few meters of the edge.

2.) The aforementioned terrain features are not blocking LOS to the extent they should, and as such are not providing the expected cover to the units within them. In playing both scenarios in the demo, I came across many instances where troops were being spotted when they realistically shouldn't have been.

Perfect example is in Citadel Shwerpunkt. As the Russians, any Tank Hunter team in steppe will be spotted by the incoming tanks at more than ranges up to 150m! This range is equivalent with the range that the unit is spotted when it is placed on the open road!! This seems a bit odd, as this unit consists of only two men, hiding in a prepared, camoflouged foxhole, across a field of (what I believe to be fairly tall) steppe grass. Shouldn't steppe grass provide a bit more concealment than a freakin' road?!?

Again, I don't think steppe, brush, and wheat are blocking LOS and spotting as much as they should be.

-Jim

[Treeburst155]

Yeah, I agree spotting is involved to the degree that units are more easily spotted with a higher "quality" LOS. Since LOS does not degrade (according to the LOS line), spotting would be affected. IOW, I think LOS is the problem and spotting is the symptom.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Go ahead. Just TRY to bury this thread, even though it's the most important thread on the board. I'll NEVER let it happen. Muahahahaaaa!!!

Treeburst155 out.

[Michael Emrys]

I must admit I do not like what I am hearing in this thread. From the sounds of your descriptions, you gentlemen have run very fair tests and I tend to trust your results, especially as they are borne out by what I have seen casually in gameplay.

It is very disappointing that either bugs or misconceived features such as these could have crept into an otherwise fine design. One hopes that BTS will take heed and vigorously address the problem.

Michael

[Treeburst155]

The testing required for these two issues is very straightforward and simple, thankfully. Either the LOS tool shows LOS degradation or it doesn't, and troop either do or do not run through various terrain at the same speed and fatigue rate.

This is exactly the sort of thing I think could get by testers focussing their attention on much more difficult issues like Tac AI, the performance of various weapons, and countless other things. Even now, thousands of CM vets are playing the game who haven't even noticed this thread, or the issues themselves.

Treeburst155 out.

[Sabrewolf]

have... to.... bump......

[JPS]

bump

[AJSL]

Bump...

Alex.

[Lt Bull]

Hmmm...yes, I too have noticed something strange with regards to LOS/spotting/concealment and light terrain.

I'm keen to hear what BTS have got to say.

Lt Bull

[PeterX]

Again, I don't think steppe, brush, and wheat are blocking LOS and spotting as much as they should be.

Maybe the too open terrain goes a long way in explaining the difficulty players find in attacking, or, at least, advancing. I'm currently engaged in a PBEM battle with random terrrain. We drew sparse trees and flat (like a bowling alley!) hills. Result= sweeping fire from end to end. My opp's Panthers with their uber-optics made quick work of our T-34 platoon from 900m.

[ October 06, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Treeburst155]

Your battle parameters were just bad luck. Panthers against most armor in open terrain means big trouble. The LOS issue we're talking about here would only have helped you if there was lots of brush and/or summer grain on the map. In CMBO such terrain might allow you to get close to the Panthers. In CMBB this does not appear to be the case. Brush is clear terrain for purposes of LOS, no matter how many 1,000s of meters of brush you're looking through (CMBO brush= 155 meters LOS). LOS does not degrade with distance.

Treeburst155 out.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Go ahead. Just TRY to bury this thread, even though it's the most important thread on the board. I'll NEVER let it happen. Muahahahaaaa!!!

Treeburst155 out.

HEY Treeburst!

its good to have a Focus!

Keep up the good work

Since I don't have the game yet I can't really comment, BUT I am following this thread with GREAT interest, please don't let the issue die if there really is a bug here.

I think I will try to stay on top of the issue regarding what I consider to be EFOW "bugs"

Thanks!

-tom w

[ October 06, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Coffin 'Enry]

I would very much like to hear from BFC on this one. So Bump....

[Treeburst155]

Hi Tom,

This has nothing to do with EFOW. It has to do with how far you can see through brush, summer wheat, and even open terrain. Spotting/FoW/Enemy ID stuff is probably affected, but it is not the problem. The problem is that LOS does not degrade with distance through non-tree terrain. The LOS line does not darken with distance, even though the manual says it should, EVEN OVER OPEN TERRAIN. With perfect LOS "quality" over any distance (through non-tree terrain), spotting/FOW could very well be affected. This is not an easy thing to test IMO.

Let me state the LOS issue another way. Suppose I'm staring at a likely enemy route of advance that consists of 200 meters of brush on flat terrain. In CMBO, I could determine just about how far out I would begin to spot the enemy in the brush. I would know this from the LOS tool.

Also, the LOS problem is evident in the editor where there is zero FoW at all times.

Lack of LOS degradation is the problem, spotting/FOW may very well be affected by it.

Remember, the manual contradicts what we see in the game with regard to the feedback from the LOS line, and the movement through trees issue.

Treeburst155 out.

[PeterX]

Your battle parameters were just bad luck.

True enough, but even Woods squares seem to have less inhibiting effect on LOS they had in CMBO. Also, the overly flat terrain generated by the random generator has nothing in common with the terrain found in nature. It should be flattish, not a linoleum floor. It renders the interesting random terrain feature unusable. A minor design miscue, IMO.

The LOS/Running issue, OTOH, is a problem of greater magnitude that strikes at the very core of the game. I'm sure BFC team will address this once they and Madmatt return from Cancun.

[ October 06, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Agua]

Just ran a few tests with flat, 1680m x 280m adjacent strips of brush, rough, grain and steppe. It looks like although the LOS tool indicates unimpeded sighting, spotting is affected by terrain. I still can't tell if, once spotted, a unit may be fired upon by all units on the map.

[edited to include the following:] Okay, it looks like only the unit which spotted the other unit my directly target the spotted unit, although other units may provide area fire at the marker. Sound contact seems to be unaffected by these non-tree terrain types.

[ October 06, 2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Hi Tom,

This has nothing to do with EFOW. It has to do with how far you can see through brush, summer wheat, and even open terrain. Spotting/FoW/Enemy ID stuff is probably affected, but it is not the problem. The problem is that LOS does not degrade with distance through non-tree terrain. The LOS line does not darken with distance, even though the manual says it should, EVEN OVER OPEN TERRAIN. With perfect LOS "quality" over any distance (through non-tree terrain), spotting/FOW could very well be affected. This is not an easy thing to test IMO.

Let me state the LOS issue another way. Suppose I'm staring at a likely enemy route of advance that consists of 200 meters of brush on flat terrain. In CMBO, I could determine just about how far out I would begin to spot the enemy in the brush. I would know this from the LOS tool.

Also, the LOS problem is evident in the editor where there is zero FoW at all times.

Lack of LOS degradation is the problem, spotting/FOW may very well be affected by it.

Remember, the manual contradicts what we see in the game with regard to the feedback from the LOS line, and the movement through trees issue.

Treeburst155 out.

Hi Treeburst,

Sorry I did not make my point more clear.

I agree with you, but since I don't have the game I can't "really" complain about it.

I Mention EFOW as a completely seperate issue (sort like my own personal crusade or pet peeve).

SO what I meant was .... You focus on posting about the LOS issue in light terrain and I'll tag team ya on the EFOW issue, that's my personal issue OK? ... Thats all!

ok?

-tom w

[ October 06, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by Agua:

Okay, it looks like only the unit which spotted the other unit may directly target the spotted unit, although other units may provide area fire at the marker. Sound contact seems to be unaffected by these non-tree terrain types.

This is VERY interesting. The non-spotting units have LOS to the area, but do not see the enemy. What range did all this occur with regards to the "brush lane"?

You see, in CMBO the LOS line would let you know when you could reasonably expect to spot an enemy. It also let you know the range at which you definitely would not spot an enemy. In CMBB this is not the case, and I'm almost sure this is a bug because of what it says about the issue in the manual (page 201).

The spotting test you ran is interesting, and I'm very happy with the results you obtained; but it doesn't address the issue of player info about LOS through the LOS line, other than to once again show that the player gets no info from the LOS line. Spotting may or may not be affected by the lack of LOS line feedback. The player's ability to play is definitely affected however.

Treeburst155 out.

[Madmatt]

We are looking into this issue but I think Charles is already on top of it as the current feature/fixed list for the v1.01 patch includes this:

* Corrected a problem that could cause grain, brush, and rough terrain not to affect line of sight properly.

I have also asked him about the fatigue thing and will comment when I know more.

Madmatt