Something to think about

[Phantom Rocker]

I've found this on WarfareHQ forum :

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I think the only real drawback that CM currently has is its scope. I don't mean its scale, that's a completely separate issue. Of course a tactical wargame isn't going to be able to handle large battles very well. That's not what it's designed to do. When I say CM has limited scope, I mean it models only a very limited range of vehicles, infantry and terrain types. Once this limitation is removed, either by sequels and/or add-on packs, I think CM will come into its own. Right now it's in its infancy. A very promising beginning, but a beginning nonetheless.

Here is what worries me. CM has been out for quite some time. CM2 is going to use the same basic game engine, albeit with new vehicles, and some enhanced combat modes. If it is going to take 18 months to 2 years to create a sequel using the same basic engine, how long is it going to take to create CM3 which is supposed to use a brand new engine? 3 years? That means gamers will be waiting four, five or even six years before we have what can be called a true wargame system. Sooner or later BTS is going to face some competition, and I hope they're up to it. So far they have had the 3D tactical area to themselves, but if Operation Flashpoint is even a glimmer of what lies in the future, BTS better kick into overdrive. As I said before, I would hate for them to be remembered as the company who had all the right ideas, but was a day late and a dollar short. BTS deserves better. What if someone gets the bright idea of turning the Operation Flashpoint engine toward WWII? For those CM players who have not tried OFP, don't underestimate what a good wargame that could be. Slightly smaller scale than even CM, but they might be competing for the same audience. I'm rambling now, but you get the point.

(by Maddog) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Pak40]

I think you're correct in saying that it will take a few years before CM3 is finished. Hopefully less if BTS hires additional help. BTS has always made smart decisions before and it seems that they will know how to handle the production of CM3 so that it is finished at a reasonable date.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What if someone gets the bright idea of turning the Operation Flashpoint engine toward WWII? For those CM players who have not tried OFP, don't underestimate what a good wargame that could be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as Operation Flashpoint is concerned, it is an entirely different game than CM. These two games don't even compete for the same crowd. OFP is a soldier simulator and Vehicle Action game, pure and simple - CM is a Grognard tactical wargame. They are totally different games, but I'm not saying that both games wont appeal to the same person - I own and enjoy both. OFP will never be able to satisfy the Grognard's lust for a tactical wargame. But other games such as GI Combat and Close Combat are direct competitors to CM.

BTW, a group already has the bright idea for a WWII game using the OFP engine. Invasion 1944

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maddog:

I'm rambling now, but you get the point.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats pretty much the only part of his post that I agree with.

[Scipio]

Well, sometimes I have the feeling that CM is a kind of action game with tactic elements. The system has some 'weak points' - the unrealistic artillery system for example, while tanks seems to be modeled very detailed. Another is the poor modeled housefighting. The maps are to small, especially for tank battles.

I would like to know more about the engine internals : how is gun accuracy for example calculated? This point is discussed here to dead, but (and because) nobody still knows how it works. Other wargames shows the formulas very detailed in the manuals.

OpFla is indeed a fine game, but I also wouldn't compare it directly with CM.

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think the only real drawback that CM currently has is its scope. I don't mean its scale, that's a completely separate issue. Of course a tactical wargame isn't going to be able to handle large battles very well. That's not what it's designed to do. When I say CM has limited scope, I mean it models only a very limited range of vehicles, infantry and terrain types. Once this limitation is removed, either by sequels and/or add-on packs, I think CM will come into its own. Right now it's in its infancy. A very promising beginning, but a beginning nonetheless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This paragraph makes me laugh. Me thinks this was written quite a while ago. Like back around the time CMBO first came out. It seems like Maddog was under the impression that CMBO (which is a paradox in itself) was going to encompass more than what happened in North Western Europe after D-Day to the fall of Berlin. Hence the "Beyond Overlord" part.

Because he specifically mentions "a very limited range of vehicles, infantry and terrain types". It seems Maddog was wanting desert tiles and Matilda tanks or somefink.

And when Maddog starts comparing CM to OFP, this just proves that he's just another one of these twitch gamers that was attracted to CM for its 3D engine and not for what it is. A tactical wargame during the time period of June '44 to May '45.

[PiggDogg]

One thing that may keep BTS around for many years (as opposed to so many design groups being fired, dismissed, or disbanded), is their low financial overhead. Over the years, big payrolls, big rents, big operating costs, etc. have sunk almost all design groups of almost every game (i.e. Dynamix, G.O.D., Avalon Hill etc. Others know their names better than I.)

I can wait for BTS to work out of their basement (if that is where their office is). Eventually, CM2, CM3, CM73, etc. will come out. I like BTS existing for years & producing new CMs.

Personally, if BTS were my business, I would keep it small with low overhead. In my opinion, remaining in business for the long haul (multiple 10s of years) by servicing one's customers well is best and most important. Making the big splash and making quick big hit most frequently ends in financial disaster.

I'll wait for future CMs when BTS has them ready.

Cheers, Richard

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Cuccia, the PiggDogg:

Personally, if BTS were my business, I would keep it small with low overhead. In my opinion, remaining in business for the long haul (multiple 10s of years) by servicing one's customers well is best and most important. Making the big splash and making quick big hit most frequently ends in financial disaster.

I'll wait for future CMs when BTS has them ready.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I don't think BTS should have as its goal being on every hard drive in the world. I think if they continue to produce the finest example of what they do, they will find their audience.

That said, I really, really wish they could find an additional programmer who would be compatible within the company. This person would, I hope, work on patches and improvements for existing games while Charles works on developing the game engine. This person could also be available to do subsidiary programming in support of Charles' work.

Just a thought.

Michael

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What if someone gets the bright idea of turning the Operation Flashpoint engine toward WWII? For those CM players who have not tried OFP, don't underestimate what a good wargame that could be<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Operation Flashpoint is not a wargame... its a FPS. It is as accurate a model of war as chess is. I don't see it as a threat to CM

[Ellros]

Notice that this Maddog does not say just "what" vehicles he feels are missing. Unless he means what was mentioned in a previous post, that being maybe he thinks it should have included vehicles from the entire war.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

The point I agree with is that CMBB is too slow to produce !

Really, I can see the problem : there are 200+ vehicles to model, with data to research, 3D models to make, then texture them, and the scenarios, the new features...All this will take 2 years because there's only 4 persons on it !

But there's a solution : if BTS asked for *free* help from "us" - the CM community- all the graphic/texture work will be made much more quickly- look at what have been done with CMBO !

[Wolfe]

If it is going to take 18 months to 2 years to create a sequel using the same basic engine

Actually I don't think CMBB is going to take quite that long. Assuming that BTS seriously got to work on CM2 starting Jan/Feb 2001 (because the CMBO patches, especially TCP/IP, took so much time to do) and if CM2 comes out in -say- Feb 2002, that's 12 months for the new game. Not too shabby. A mini timeline:

Jul/15/98 - Computer Squad Leader changes to Combat Mission

Mar/11/99 - Hoping for an early Summer 99 release

Apr/30/99 - Steve guesstimates CMBO has been in development for ~1.5 years

Jun/30/99 - Hoping for late Summer 99 release

Aug/23/99 - Classic Alpha AAR is first revealed

Sep/28/99 - Beta Demo delayed

Oct/28/99 - Beta Demo released

Nov/20/99 - Chance Encounter for Beta Demo released

Dec/27/99 - Still polishing the game

Feb/11/00 - More polishing

Mar/28/00 - Intro Movie released and late May 2000 release date set

May/09/00 - Gold Demo delayed: damn those refresh monkeys!!!

May/10/00 - Gold Demo released

Jun/14/00 - CMBO ships and the eternal wait at the mailbox begins

Jun/16/00 - 1.01 Patch released

Jun/26/00 - CM sells out for the first time

Jul/27/00 - 1.03 Patch released

Jul/31/00 - CM sells out for the second time

Aug/25/00 - 1.05 Patch released

Nov/29/00 - Public Beta 1.1 released

Dec/15/00 - Public Beta 22 released

Dec/20/00 - Public Beta 23 released

Dec/22/00 - Public Beta 24 released

Jan/10/01 - 1.10 Patch w/ TCP/IP released

Feb/08/01 - 1.12 Patch released

Jun/06/01 - First sneak peek pics of CM2

The timeline with all of its delays may look a little bleak, but the good part about it is BTS has now gone through this whole experience (ordeal? ) once before and undoubtedly has a better idea of what to expect. Even with an engine rewrite I don't expect CM3 will take as long as CM1 did.

I think BTS has said they may bring in another "code monkey" to help with the engine re-write. And, IIRC, one of the main delays of CM1 was the models and textures.

CM3 will obviously take longer than CM2, but parts of the engine re-write and model building can be done in parallel. And many parts of the engine (TCP/IP, Strat and TacAI, targeting, etc.) will likely get tweaks, but won't need to be completely rewritten. A significant portion of the game (3D engine, relative spotting, more complex models) obviously will change but it isn't as if they're starting from scratch.

My $0.02.

Oh, feel free to add to this timeline.

- Chris

[ February 20, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Captain Wacky]

Here's something to think about-want BTS to have a much larger workforce without financial endangerment? Well hell, I know where they can find hundreds of people-right on this forum. Granted, the guys at BTS should handle all the "important" stuff like coding and designing, they are a great many number of skilled mod'ers out there who I think would gladly do a little work. Conceivably, BTS wouldn't even have to worry about making skins and sounds, just let us do-all they would have to do is review the work and choose the ones they want in the game. I don't think this will be implemented as CMBB is getting to be finished, but it could be used in later versions.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellros:

Notice that this Maddog does not say just "what" vehicles he feels are missing. Unless he means what was mentioned in a previous post, that being maybe he thinks it should have included vehicles from the entire war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't think he means vehicles from the entire war. He is correct, there are a lot of vehicles that existed in 44-45 that are not in the game, most of them German. But most of these were rare vehicles or vehicles that wouldn't have had much of an impact on combat. However, a few important vehicles such as the Quad .50 U.S. halftrack are missing. If you have Steel Panthers World at War and look at their vehicles lists for 44-45 then you will see a LOT more vehicles than in CMBO.