Auto-sneak-exhaustion not improved in 1.01

[SuperSulo]

"Is 15 turns out-of-action a proper punishment for getting your HMG shot at with firepower 17 for one turn?"

I think it does seem a "bit" harsh, I hope Steve will take one final look at this...

[Col Deadmarsh]

Not only do I agree with Redwolf but I propose that the area fire suppression is too large a zone.

When I was playing a canned scenario the other day, a Russian MG team was suppressing my MG team who had been given orders to move to a different location. The enemy MG fire was aimed at one of my units 15-20 meters away and yet it was suppressing my MG team, causing them to sneak instead of move which in turn tired them out.

I mean c'mon, MG fire 20 meters away should not have an effect on this support team. I really think suppression has been overdone in this game and needs to be toned down in this regard. Area fire suppression should be limited to about a 10m radius and no more.

It just occured to me after writing this that the enemy was using "direct fire" and not area fire which shouldn't have that kind of suppression radius. So not only is the area fire a problem but the direct fire is too.

[ November 24, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Not only do I agree with Redwolf but I propose that the area fire suppression is too large a zone.

When I was playing a canned scenario the other day, a Russian MG team was suppressing my MG team who had been given orders to move to a different location. The enemy MG fire was aimed at one of my units 15-20 meters away and yet it was suppressing my MG team, causing them to sneak instead of move which in turn tired them out.

I mean c'mon, MG fire 20 meters away should not have an effect on this support team. I really think suppression has been overdone in this game and needs to be toned down in this regard. Area fire suppression should be limited to about a 10m radius and no more.

It just occured to me after writing this that the enemy was using "direct fire" and not area fire which shouldn't have that kind of suppression radius. So not only is the area fire a problem but the direct fire is too.

Ok, if your walking along and someone opens up with a machine gun on a few people about 20-30 meters away, are you going to be like, pffff whatever i'll just do what i was going to do before hundreds of bullets started flying around at those people over there, luckily i'm probably invisible to who ever is shooting at them.

I like how the game will limit the players control of shackling the pixle people with his will. This adds to the games realism a ton.

I'm sure Hitler would have been thrilled if he could literly impose his will on every single soldier in his armies and make them do exactly what he wanted when he wanted, ect.... this like the man himself were completly out of touch with reality.

[ November 24, 2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

Ok, if your walking along and someone opens up with a machine gun on a few people about 20-30 meters away, are you going to be like, pffff whatever i'll just do what i was going to do before hundreds of bullets started flying around at those people over there, luckily i'm probably invisible to who ever is shooting at them.

Yes, I'm gonna keep on moving because I'm a soldier! MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

It wouldn't be such a problem if the suppression modeling wasn't so unforgiving, but the way things are now your support team hits the ground at the first bullets heard in the area and then goes into auto-sneak mode the rest of the game.

[ November 24, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Tarquelne]

Maybe his job is keeping him too busy. Maybe he found True Love at last. Who knows?

Maybe he's reading every book on the eastern front he can find, preparing for his triumphant return.

All in one - our greatest hope, our greatest fear.

[Tarquelne]

the way things are now your support team hits the ground at the first bullets heard in the area and then goes into auto-sneak mode the rest of the game.[/QB]

Wow, that's even worse than what redwolf described! BFC, please fix or do somefink!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

[QB]Ok, if your walking along and someone opens up with a machine gun on a few people about 20-30 meters away, are you going to be like, pffff whatever i'll just do what i was going to do before hundreds of bullets started flying around at those people over there, luckily i'm probably invisible to who ever is shooting at them.

[QB]

Yes, I'm gonna keep on moving because I'm a soldier! MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

It wouldn't be such a problem if the suppression modeling wasn't so unforgiving, but the way things are now your support team hits the ground at the first bullets heard in the area and then goes into auto-sneak mode the rest of the game.</font>

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

[QB]Ok, if your walking along and someone opens up with a machine gun on a few people about 20-30 meters away, are you going to be like, pffff whatever i'll just do what i was going to do before hundreds of bullets started flying around at those people over there, luckily i'm probably invisible to who ever is shooting at them.

[QB]

Yes, I'm gonna keep on moving because I'm a soldier! MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

It wouldn't be such a problem if the suppression modeling wasn't so unforgiving, but the way things are now your support team hits the ground at the first bullets heard in the area and then goes into auto-sneak mode the rest of the game.</font>

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

[QB]Ok, if your walking along and someone opens up with a machine gun on a few people about 20-30 meters away, are you going to be like, pffff whatever i'll just do what i was going to do before hundreds of bullets started flying around at those people over there, luckily i'm probably invisible to who ever is shooting at them.

[QB]

Yes, I'm gonna keep on moving because I'm a soldier! MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

It wouldn't be such a problem if the suppression modeling wasn't so unforgiving, but the way things are now your support team hits the ground at the first bullets heard in the area and then goes into auto-sneak mode the rest of the game.</font>

[Redwolf]

If smallarms fire is slugging into a place 15-20m away from me then I would do exactly the opposite: I'll get out, avoiding to attract attention, before it switches to me.

Look into to room you are in. Unless you have a very fancy house the other wall is at a maximum 8 meters away. Would smallarms fire 15m away make you hug the ground forever instead of moving out as if you haven't been there in first place?

And even if you go down, if that fire stopped, would you stay down if your badass German officer respectivly Commissar asked you to go elsewhere?

[ November 24, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Not all german officers were bad ass thor like vikings wielding the power of nazi.

You'll notice that some platoon leaders have better qualities then others.

You'll also notice if you run some tests, that platoon leaders and company leaders (wich were missing from the tests by the way) have different quailities.

Some offer considerable bonus to moral, wich is modeled great.

Stop testing using hmg's that are leaderless for startes everyone. I like to put company HQ's with my machine guns.

[Redwolf]

Gaylord, please don't detract this thread. What does your last posting have to do with the auto-sneak-exhaustion problem?

A HQ has a morale bonus which will only shift but not solve the problem. So with 2+ morale bonus you need more firepower to trigger the problem, but the problem is the same: the player gets punished bejond what he did. Whether you punish him by loss of control or by requiring a morale+ HQ which can't be used elsewhere now is only variants of punishment.

[ November 24, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Gaylord, please detract this thread. What does your last posting have to do with the auto-sneak-exhaustion problem?

The chance of this happening decreases when you have a good leader with them.

When HMG's are crawl sprinting for their lives, chances are they are going to do so even when they are tired, since their doing it for their life. They don't have the panoramic view we have of the game and the time to think about alot of things.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

When HMG's are crawl sprinting for their lives, chances are they are going to do so even when they are tired, since their doing it for their life. They don't have the panoramic view we have of the game and the time to think about alot of things.

So you say that what we see here is justified punishment? 15 turns loss of control for receiving one turn firepower 17?

Then please explain to me why this horrible firepower 17 doesn't do jack elsewhere in the game.

In your opinion, what kind of firepower should trigger this kind of behaviour, and for how long? And if so, do you think CMBB implements it that way? And do you think that CMBB 1.01 implements it in a matching (not equal, matching) way for all infantry units?

[ November 24, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Tarquelne]

How about someone posting a saved game with some HMG units at the auto-Sneak-over riding player's control state? (Or e-mailing such a saved game on request? Consider this a request.)

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

How about someone posting a saved game with some HMG units at the auto-Sneak-over riding player's control state? (Or e-mailing such a saved game on request? Consider this a request.)

See above.

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

When HMG's are crawl sprinting for their lives, chances are they are going to do so even when they are tired, since their doing it for their life. They don't have the panoramic view we have of the game and the time to think about alot of things.

So you say that what we see here is justified punishment? 15 turns loss of control for receiving one turn firepower 17?

Then please explain to me why this horrible firepower 17 doesn't do jack elsewhere in the game.

In your opinion, what kind of firepower should trigger this kind of behaviour, and for how long? And if so, do you think CMBB implements it that way? And do you think that CMBB 1.01 implements it in a matching (not equal, matching) way for all infantry units?</font>

[aka_tom_w]

Gaylord

The trigger is not the problem here.

The issue is that the HMG team reverts to the sneak command, AFTER the firing has stopped and AFTER the player has issued a move order. What happens is that you cannot prevent the sneak-to-exhaustion behaviour after they have come under fire. (the only known work around at this point is to give a hide order that should prevent sneak to exhaustion, BUT that only works if they did not freak out and go into panic mode)

-tom w

[ November 24, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, we are following this issue still. It is getting easier to do now that it has narrowed down to just this instead of the poorly based starting position ("it's all screwed up, all the time, every time. BTS fix it or do somefink" ).

Colonel_Deadmarsh,

Yes, I'm gonna keep on moving because I'm a soldier! MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

Again we see why we differ so much on how things are modeled in CMBB. 20-30m isn't close? I doubt any REAL soldier would make such a claim. This is well within the effective killing range of any small arm, even a pistol for cripes sakes. Don't take my word for it, ask a vet (combat or not) if he thinks 20-30m in a firefight is something to laugh about. 200-300m is even something to be gravely concerned about. Well, if you are a real soldier and not just playing one on the PC that is.

Gaylord Focker,

In my opinion a fire power of 2 should trigger it, if the bullets are spraying around the target. Fire Power does not matter, lots of hot lead flying around does, death alone is'nt the only factor that will scare soldiers/people, the fear of it is also a big motivator.

This is entirely correct. Any small arms fire is enough to make a unit, even a well trained one, hit the dirt. The difference is that weak small arms fire (i.e. poorly aimed, sporadic, and low impact power) can be more easily overcome than intense fire.

If anybody doubts this... think about snipers in WWI. The knowledge that at any time a *single* bullet might come your way was enough to cause guys to take great care in not revealing any part of their bodies. So obviously "firepower" isn't the main consideration of a soldier. Instead, it is "what are the chances that I will be hit" that is primary concern.

Soldiers can overcome natural Human fear of being hit by flying lead, but the degree of they can depends on a lot of factors. Contrary to the assumption that Elite guys can go running straight at sources of fire, laughing all the way, the historical record shows different. They would do this only in exceptional circumstances. The norm was to figure out some other way to acheive their mission without doing something so foolish. Therefore, a better trained unit is actually more reluctant to face small arms fire because the know damned well that it isn't a good first tactical choice.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

just for the record I LOVE the new infantry model.

I really like the fact that control is taken from the player when units get caught in the open under fire, IF they panic. When the player loses control of their unit(s) because they break route or panic it should be considered the "appropriate" punishment of bad tactics or a predictable outcome of bad luck or a bad tactical situation. Panic is the least punitive because units can recover from panic fairly quickly. Units that become broken represent a more punitive result that can leave the player without control for a long time sometimes even until the end of the game. I like that part and I think the morale model works well in this game.

BUT what Redwolf is trying to point out is, what appears to him, as an obvious bug in the morale model for HMG's underfire in the open and I think he may have a good point here.

-tom w

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Gaylord

The trigger is not the problem here.

The issue is that the HMG team reverts to the sneak command, AFTER the firing has stopped and AFTER the player has issued a move order. What happens is that you cannot prevent the sneak-to-exhaustion behaviour after they have come under fire. (the only known work around at this point is to give a hide order that should prevent sneak to exhaustion, BUT that only works if they did not freak out and go into panic mode)

-tom w

I was simply answering a question the redwolf asked me.

Machine guns main purpose was not essentialy to kill, but to put 800 to a 1000ish rounds in the air per minuit, wich would scare the hell out of alot of people, hence making them hit the dirt, and crawl on their stomachs hopefuly in the opposite direction of their objectives blunting an attack, and seriously hindering movements and manuever.

Plus they kill enemy soldiers as a bonus. Very effective weapon in that it achieves all of it's goals.

Their are of course counter measures that can be used sometimes that work.

1) Keep your HMG teams in a safe and protceted spot, they are not meant to go trudging along the battle field with your infantry, they have a longer range gun for a reason.

2) If possible, wich is'nt always, keep a platoon or comapny leader with the HMG team, you'll be amazed at how well a good leader can motivate and rally a squad.

3) If you for some reason do have to move your HMG squads, make sure the coast is clear, because if another HMG finds them in their cross hairs, they are going to get their ass's shot off and thats if their lucky.

4) Oh i almost forgot, a little smoke never hurts to cover them as well.

[ November 24, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

MG fire 20-30 meters away isn't anywhere near me!

Well now, that depends. On a lot of things. Consider just one factor: It could make a difference whether you are receiving fire from your front to an area 20 meters to your side, which might well make you cautious but not panicked, or receiving fire from your front in an area 20 meters to your front. In that latter case, some of the bullets are going to be whistling around your ears (what SL called "penetrating fire") and might well cause you to take casualties and panic.

Michael

[Redwolf]

So you all find it OK that a HMG goes out of comission for 15 turns on one turn of CM firepower 17?

And you think it is well integrated with the rest of the game's mechanics, like how squads behave under similar circumstances?

[Battlefront.com]

Redwolf,

I just wasted another 20 minutes trying to reproduce what you have seen and did NOT see it. I'm not even going to read this thread again until I see a file in front of me that reproduces what you are seeing.

steve@battlefront.com

Steve

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[QB]Yes, we are following this issue still. It is getting easier to do now that it has narrowed down to just this instead of the poorly based starting position ("it's all screwed up, all the time, every time. BTS fix it or do somefink" ).

I need help.

Please, somebody, read my initial posting and explain to me in what it differs from what has been presented until now? I am serious, I am wasting everybody's time here because of some lack of communication skill and I'd like to correct that.

Thanks.