81 mm mortars

[Gen-x87H]

When forced to not force mix and one takes German Paras and gets a wonderful 81mm spotter that eats up valuable arty points.

Do you guys go ahead and just him lay smoke for your advancing troops? Or do you bother to actually try and supress the enemy with it?

I tried supressing a few nights ago and it didnt do squat. Most of his troops got away then cut my paras down when they regrouped. I am thinking if I layed 300 rounds of smoke I would have done better since they have better firepower than American 45 rifle toons. It also would have got me closer to his jumbos since the stugs you get with the paras are not worth much when you run into Jumbos.

So what do you guys do?

Gen

[Cpt. Cook]

I don't speak with a wealth of experience, but I do know an 81mm mortar is basically useless against a dug in enemy (esp. pillboxes &c.), unless it is a spotter who I think has more rounds avail. They work like most artillery better against lesser experienced infantry or in tree cover. I would guess it is generally best used either as you say for smoke cover or in reserve for any infantry counterattack if it should happen, i.e. if you are playing an engagement rather than all-out assault.

[JasonC]

Use them on infantry, but not dug in infantry. A wooded target is best, and avoid infantry in buildings. Buildings provide good cover against near misses, and especially against small caliber stuff. While trees create airbursts occasionally, which can make light mortars more effective.

The other key thing about getting mileage out of light mortars is to use them against an enemy *in contact* - meaning, engaged by your own infantry at the same time - and then to follow up. The mortars can give you fire ascendency in the infantry battle, by making a lot of his guys go "heads down", while they are falling. That reduces outgoing fire, and makes it easier for your infantry to fire themselves. The combo of mortars and infantry fire can then break or pin a high portion of the enemy. Also, an enemy in contact can't just keep moving so easily, since forward he gets cut up.

But most of the effect will be to morale, not direct killed or wounded. There will be some of that, but far more men in panic than actually hit. Most of the effect of the fire will pass in 3 minutes, as the men rally. So you want to time an attack with infantry for the period right after the mortars. (It also works better against regulars than veterans, but there isn't much you can do about that).

Used right, even the light mortars can have a serious effect. The bulk of the enemy losses come when still cowering men are rushed by infantry, into the same body of cover they are in. That isn't the mortars directly, but it is due to their aid.

Defenders can get the most mileage out of this, because the attackers usually have less cover, you can see where they will be coming, sometimes you have TRPs, and often the follow up infantry counterattack will come as something of a surprise. Don't just halt one of his thrusts, kill it dead this way. It will dislocate his plans, run the knock-out score, and keep possession of at least part of the field. All without too large an investment.

[Sarge Saunders]

Smoke is a common use for 81mm FOs but if you want to cause caualties and all you have is the 81mm arty then I suggest the following:

Keep the FO targeting likely avenues of approach for enemy infantry. Retarget as necessary until you have a good fire mission. They can be effective in certain circumstances. If the enemy is hiding in or especially moving through tall pine trees, the 81mm will produce horrendous treebursts and you will be satisfied with the results. Obviously if you catch the opponent in the open that helps too. Unlike heavier arty, it is best to use 81mm in conjunction with other forces. In other words (like JasonC said) it is good to use in close support of engaged infantry.

As far as Stugs go....Keep them back. Area fire some as one might with artillery and such. Use your attached schrecks with each platoon to kill tanks if the terrain suits it. Maybe even consider attaching several schrecks to a +2 combat bonus platoon leader. They who have had no luck hitting with schrecks at range will be amazed at the difference when attached to a bonus HQ.

[edited to clarify a point.]

[ March 26, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Redwolf]

Very mixed results with 81mm mortars.

Usually they are useless, but I had three games where this didn't apply, Gravesregistration ones waxe my veteran Panzergrenadier reserve with one (and immobilized a Hetzer next to them), I destroyed two platoons of British paratroopers in a random laddergame, apparently breaking the player's morale, and on Sunday I had a 81mm Fo and a mortar carrier together drop too many rounds into woods, it was too much firepower for the opponent.

I think these are the key issues:

- opponents sometimes ignore them, they don't run away. If the mortar works this time for some random reason, they get into trouble

- best use is to hit troops that move or that have already been given movement commands

- it is better to use them late in the game when global morale is low, troops may have lost HQs etc., so that they are more likely to break

- you can use all arty, even small one, to direct enemy traffic by dropping random spotting rounds. Few people move through terrain that is known to be pre-targetted

They're strange things. I gained the impression that they work better in scattered trees than full woods, maybe it's imagination, but maybe the treeburst ratio is only a little worse and the lack of cover counts more. While I found the mortar carrier combined with a FO to be devastating, I found two FOs firing overlapping to be a waste of ammo.

I certainly found 81mm and especially 3" mortar FOs to be more valuable than the 75mm FO, which has much higher blast value. The HE model of CMBO is more complex than the single blast value given to the user implies, it is easily imaginable that the mortars are assumed to have much better shrapnel effect while having lower destructive force against fixed structures. I need to testfire against guns...

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by redwolf:

- it is better to use them late in the game when global morale is low, troops may have lost HQs etc., so that they are more likely to break

Redwolf has a point here. It would be a good tactic to always save 50 mortar rounds or so until closer to the end of game as a) global moral is lower then and by this time you pretty well know where your opponents troops are.

Might be useful in counter-attacking to take back lost terrain at that point. Of course, this goes for almost any artillery, but 81mm especially because you start with so many rounds of ammo it is easier to save some.

I haven't done extensive enough testing to know if 81mm treebursts more often than other arty or if treebursts are as likely in scattered trees as they are in woods. Treebursts do seem more likely in Tall Pines as one would think....

-Sarge

[tar]

Well, last night against the AI, I found a mortar spotter I had to be quite effective in taking out a 75mm infantry gun and a 57mm (?) AT gun. They were all dug in in woods or scattered trees. It took a while for the IG to go, but they can be quite useful against AT guns, since you can often use them without having to risk anything to return fire.

Oddly enough, the spotter also got credit for a 20mm flak, that I only blind fired at with a Sherman tank. Rather an odd effect.

[flamingknives]

One 81mm spotter isn't that hard.

Three, all firing on infantry advancing through scattered trees (treebursts, not much cover) kind of rips things up, but still try and engage with those nice high firepower fallschirmjagers.

As for stugs, treat them as mobile AT guns, eg, keyhole and ambush etc.

Just my tuppence worth

[Holien]

Your expectations are too high. The comments made by Jason and the others are spot on. See it as an additonal source of firepower to use at the right time.

They are not weapons that can win a fight by themselves unless you get some good treebursts.

The real art to artillery is using it in conjunction with your other forces, not by itself.

H

[xerxes]

Holiens is spot on. Even with bigger stuff trying to cause damage with arty only is a mistake. Unengaged targets can avoid your arty.

Overlapping FOs cause a much worse hit on morale.

[imported_WARHAMMER]

Don't forget what it can do to open top AFVs, and there's usally troops near by!!

[Burma Doc]

I bring 81's up early and use for smoke and putting on isolated positins like mg's. Then I will move them back and wait for bigger engagements to occur. Definately keep them for the end when ammo and morale is low if you are going to advance on a flag that is weakly held or still open to take. Keeping them hidden and close to command los is critical since everything will fire on them when they are spotted. I have always liked them in fights.