Redwolf Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I can as well make it into its own thread: On this and other forums I see a lot of people picking up these FX 5500 graphics cards with 256 MB memory. They do that based on the desire to put the quality and performance of a video cards into a single number. In this case they use the amount of video RAM because that is what (unfortunately) game vendors put on their boxes as minimum hardware requirements. Unfortunately these cards are way too slow to make any use of even 128 MB, they are a total joke and have been brought to the market purely on the premise to sell to people who are too lazy to look up the actual performance numbers and just use the amount of RAM as a buying decision. These slow 256 MB cards are pretty much precisely as fast as an ATI Radeon 9200 or a GeForce 3. Unless you have a very modern game they are generally slower than GeForce 4 cards for older games (of course the very modern game might run faster on the 5500 but it will be too slow on either). If you want to condense the performance of the complex thing that a moden video card is into one single number, then use memory bandwidth, especially if you want high resolutions and AA/AF settings). So, this single number of memory bandwidth is 6400 MB/sec for the 5500. Sounds much? Nope. If you have a game running at 60 FPS that is not even half the required memory bandwidth to visit each memory cell even once during each frame if you have 256 MB. Now, in reality things are more complicated than that, not all memory is visited on each frame and most of what is visited is visited multiple times. But it still stands, with this laughable amount of memory bandwidth the card has no chance to make use of even 128 MB, not to mention 256. And on top of it the GPU is pretty slow, too. Having said all that, it will be a fine card for CM, just don't pay more than for a 128 MB card. And get the fanless version, the fans on the GeForce FX are a joke and after 1 - 1.5 years permanent use start whining and grinding like mad. And get one with a temperature sensor, many 5200 and 5500 don't have one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Murray Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Some of us are not "lazy" people as you so rudely put it! Unless you're a hardcore gamer with tons of expertise these stats are meaningless. I bought one as I was constrained by the limits of the power supply of my computer (250 W). In fact, overall, I'm quite happy with my BFG Geforce FX 5500 (256 MB) OC (factory overclocked). Yes, it is not the best card by a long shot, but I wasn't about to go out & purchase a whole new system just to get a better (more wattage?) power supply (mine's a Dell & according to what they say I can't upgrade what's in there now). [ July 19, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 I never said it won't do its job. I am just warning people that they shouldn't buy these cards in the expectation that the 256 MB RAM will do them any good. Since game makers continue to state minimum system requirements on game boxes just in video ram (WTF?) it is easy to build this expectations and people might go and buy the card which gives most MB for the $. And end up with a 2001 speed class card. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgardner1 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I still can't get it to run with CM games. Video manf tells me its not the card, MB manf tells me its not MB, software ( and to be fair the CM series is just one of the games having trouble/not running properly) tells me its not software, so I'm about ready to chuck the darn card. My card is AGP and I'm beginning to think the AGP slot is bad in some fashion (although other games work fine) and just get a PCI card. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgardner1 Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I still can't get it to run with CM games. Video manf tells me its not the card, MB manf tells me its not MB, software ( and to be fair the CM series is just one of the games having trouble/not running properly) tells me its not software, so I'm about ready to chuck the darn card. My card is AGP and I'm beginning to think the AGP slot is bad in some fashion (although other games work fine) and just get a PCI card. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caralampio Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Hey Redwolf, what would you recommend, still within the GeForce line and for limited budget (say $150 tops) also addressing this wattage problem (mine is a Dell 8250)? "Sometimes it isn't laziness, just pure and simple Ignorance!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 That is changing too often for a specific recommendation. In general, I highly recommend to make the jump to the GeForce 6600GT or 6800 if you can afford it at all. That should be in the $170 region now. I'd rather ebay a 6xx0 than buying a FX one. The 6800 is nicer, has more memory bandwidth and most can be BIOS-patched to have more pixel pipelines. Anyway, in general, you should go to a chart like this, it will tell you the actual performance data. http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2195&p=3 If you want to reduce a card's performance to a single number, then use memory bandwidth. Memory bandwidth is the "RAM bus width" (last column) multiplied by the RAM clock (4th column). From there you can pretty much compute memory bandwidth per dollar with what prices you find on pricegrabber.com Newer series have more features that help performance with new games, in particular programmable shaders. This is why a 6-series card is nicer than a 5-series card even for the same performance numbers. However, that is only useful when the card is fast enough to boot. That is why the 5200 and 5500 are a bad choice. While they have hardware support to do all the fancy shaders of Doom3 and do Doom3 much faster than a GeFore 4 card either of them are too slow for Doom3, and for older games the GeForce 4 is ahead. The better 5xx0 cards, the 59x0 series with 256 bit memory, have better (less) power consumption than either GF 4 or GF 6, but I don't have the specific number for the 6600GT and 6800 (no letters). All I can say is that my 6800Ultra is a power pig compared to my 5900XT when idle, and that is even after I installed a new BIOS to lower 2D voltage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caralampio Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Before you said that the 256 MB of memory made no difference for the 5500 FX. Does this also apply to the ones you recommend (6600 GT and 6800)? In both cases there is about a $100 difference between the 128 and 256 versions. Also one last Q, do you have any bad opinion of eVGA e-GeForce products? That "e-" makes one consider if there is something incompatible with them (they are meant for specific purposes maybe?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 eVGA is a good brand. "e-GeForce" is just their branding of the Nvidia GeForce family and not a special designation for an unique series of cards. The 256MB versions of the higher end cards are useful. The GPUs are powerful enough and the memory is fast enough to make a difference in some newer titles. Doom 3 supposedly can make use of the few 512MB videocards available because of the number, quality and size of the textures it can use. As Redwolf pointed out, the 256MB versions of some of the lower-end cards is a bit of a marketing gimmick that doesn't really benefit the end user. They exist primarily as a "price point" for purchasers who can afford the price that is higher than some cards, but not enough to reach the next version/series. There may be some occasions where a 256MB card may be better than a 128MB version, but until sufficient memory bandwidth exists between the GPU and video memory, there's little benefit to the additional memory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by caralampio: Before you said that the 256 MB of memory made no difference for the 5500 FX. Does this also apply to the ones you recommend (6600 GT and 6800)? In both cases there is about a $100 difference between the 128 and 256 versions. Also one last Q, do you have any bad opinion of eVGA e-GeForce products? That "e-" makes one consider if there is something incompatible with them (they are meant for specific purposes maybe?) What Schrullenhaft said, eVGA is actually one of the better brands. The brand doesn't make much of a difference except for a) service, when you hae to send in a broken card and cooling which is lousy on most cards. The 6800 is only available in 128 MB. I think there are rare 6600GT with 256 MB. They might be able to use 256 MB depending on the game but there are better ways to spend $100. There are current-game card. The next generation of games will see them struggle at low quality settings and then you won't have much use for more RAM. I'd rather take a 128 MB 6800 than a 256 6600GT. If you can then upgrade to 6800GT which is a much better card, except for power consumption and the fact that most vendors coolers block an additonal PCI slot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TufenHuden Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 If you can find one a EVGA 5700 Ultra 128mb card is truly a decent card with NV36 GPU, either ebay or newegg also a Gainward 5900 ultras are decent and are going down in price. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm Heidkamp Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by Redwolf: The 6800 is only available in 128 MB. I'd rather take a 128 MB 6800 than a 256 6600GT. [/QB]Emmmmmmmmmmm... excuse me but im the owner of a pretty XFX6800GT 256Mb PCI-E, so.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 ... you didn't get the fine difference between 6600GT and 6800GT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm Heidkamp Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by Redwolf: ... you didn't get the fine difference between 6600GT and 6800GT Well they are your own words, "6800 is only available in 128mb..." Maybe you dont know to read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TufenHuden Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 6800GT is available in 128mb&256mb- 128mb @$274.00 usc at newegg.com EVGA reg 6800-128mb with only 12 pipeline GPU $189.00 usc-GT's and Ultra's 16-pipeline GPU with DDR3 ram 6800 reg-12-pipeline with high 2.5gn DDR ram. If you are loking for a happy medium then maybe 6600gt 128mb OC by BFG for $212.00 use's DDR3 ram as well at newegg.com. [ July 21, 2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: TufenHuden ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 Why in the world would you spend more on a 6600GT than a 6800 (no letters) Here's a 6800 for $164 if you are lucky enought to get the mail in rebate (unlikely with Tigerdirect). http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1009366&CatId=880 If you get a 6800GT you should have 256 MB. DDR ir DDR3 doesn't matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by Wilhelm Heidkamp: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Redwolf: ... you didn't get the fine difference between 6600GT and 6800GT Well they are your own words, "6800 is only available in 128mb..." Maybe you dont know to read. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm Heidkamp Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by Redwolf: If you people are too stupid to get simple designations I can't help it either. Surely you are right and most of us are stupids. At least we have found you in the way to iluminate our poor lifes with your knowledge and wisdom. Thanks mate. A lot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally's World Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 This is a great thread! I'm going to be upgrading my PC from an XP 1800+ to a XP 3000+. But I'm also looking at a video card to replace my trusty Ti4200-8x, the BFG GeForce 6600GT OC 128MB card caught my fancy. Considering that the 6800's are pretty expensive right now, would going to a 6600GT OC from my old card be worth it especially with my CPU upgrade coming within the next two weeks? Or would I better off waiting for the 6800's to drop in price a bit in about 6 months? By the way, I'm in no rush to replace my video card. Thanking all for the replies... [ July 21, 2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Wally's World ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 Originally posted by Wilhelm Heidkamp: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Redwolf: If you people are too stupid to get simple designations I can't help it either. Surely you are right and most of us are stupids. At least we have found you in the way to iluminate our poor lifes with your knowledge and wisdom. Thanks mate. A lot. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally's World Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Thanks, Redwolf. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caralampio Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 There's another issue with these 5500FX cards. I just learned that Dell has withdrawn support for these cards due to the number of problems with installation on Dell PC's. Guess what brand my computer is 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caralampio Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 OK I've narrowed my choices, what's better: a 6600 with 256 MB, or a 6600 GT with 128 MB? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I'd say the 6600GT w/ 128MB is the better choice. The 6600 cards typically have clock speeds of 300MHz core and 550MHz memory; while the 6600GT cards have frequencies of 500MHz core and 900MHz memory. These frequency comparisons are valid between these two families since the GPU/core is pretty much exactly the same. Comparing the frequencies of the 6600 to the 5500 isn't the same however and will not give you a good idea of the relative performance with respect to each other. You may want to examine more closely why Dell decided to drop the FX5500 cards. If it is due to reasons of wattage, then the 6600/6800 family is going to be worse than the 5500 series. You'll often see a "requirement" for a 350W power supply. However there could be other reasons such as OEM pricing, customer demand, build quality or actual compatibility issues with particular Dell models. If more wattage is the answer then you may want to check out these premium Dell-compatible power supplies from PC Power & Cooling. Their website recommends the Turbo-Cool 425 for the Dimension 8250 series (at about $134 + shipping though). [ July 21, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TufenHuden Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Redwolf, For your comments on Vid card knowledge, all of us that don't everything-since you are a know at all-if I had to choose between a 6800 or 6600-then 6800 would win but there a 6800 256mb and I've got one-it's a Gainward 2200 Ultra GoldenSample-it has the 12 pipeline, but there rare and are mostly in european market. I won this one thru ebay for $290.00,I also just won another but a Asus 6800GT 256MB a great card I put the other 6800 in my old PC-but there out there.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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