Saturday Nov 1, Chicago

[MrSpkr]

Scene: A brightly lit kitchen table in a new suburban home. The day fades outside the bay windows.

Two figures sit at the table. The tall husband is desperately carving the last of two pumpkins, while his wife puts the finishing touches on three Halloweed costumes

MrSpkr: "So, have you had a chance to think about it? I can be on the plane tomorrow morning, and back by tomorrow night."

MrsSpkr: "Well, here's the deal. We have about $200 to spare in the budget this week. You can either go to Chicago OR you can get the equipment to link into the neighborhood satellite network."

MrSpkr: angrily "You fight dirty!"

MrsSpkr: smiling "I learned from the best, honey."

MrSpkr: pondering "So, if I go to Chicago, then I can't get the wireless network this week, right? I'm stuck in AOL for another week. I can do that."

MrsSpkr: "Another week? Try another month."

MrSpkr: confused "What do you mean?"

MrsSpkr: "Well, next weekend is my birthday, right? You said I could go out with the girls. Between that and whatever you buy me that weekend, that money is gone."

MrSpkr: stammering "But . . . but . . . but . . ."

MrsSpkr: "And the weekend after that, we are having guttering put in. That will eat up almost all our excess cash for the rest of the month -- and Thanksgiving will finish us off."

MrSpkr: still stammering "But . . . but . . . but . . ."

MrsSpkr: "And of course, the first week in December, you said you would fly your Dad and grandparents down. That burns up that money."

MrSpkr: stammering "But . . . but . . . but . . ."

MrsSpkr: "And then there's Christmas -- and flying to Tulsa for the family reunion -- why, my goodness, you might not be able to get internet until next year."

MrSpkr: pleading "But . . . but . . . but . . ."

MrsSpkr: "NO! I SAID NO!! DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU?!?! NO! NO! NO!"

MrSpkr: muttering "I hate it when you PMS."

MrsSpkr: "WHAT WAS THAT!?"

MrSpkr: "Umm, I said, you make me feel so blessed."

MrsSpkr: "That's what I thought."

--exeunt--

Sigh. Sorry guys. I wanted to make it, but the convergence of a lot of other factors makes it impossible. Have fun!

Steve

[Berlichtingen]

Not going to make it this time around. Feeling under the weather today

[Michael Dorosh]

Full reports expected...and Steve, I suspect we will all have our copies before Christmas in any event...

[JasonC]

Back from the Chicago CMAK preview, part 2. Had a lot of fun, got in 3 games. One TCP-IP scenario vs. another human there (Brits vs. Eye-Ties with old armor), and 2 QBs against the AI (both German armor force probes vs. my green US combined arms, in December 1942 Tunisia).

The highlight of human game, without spoiling anything, was when I learned to beware the Italian tankette. lol. Silly looking and armored about like a German halftrack, but zippy, the shocking thing about the L3/35 was the penetration power of its MGs vs. light armor. Had one kill a Cruiser Mk I with a flat side shot at around 75m. (Are they 6.5mm Breda, 8mm, or what?)

In the first AI QB, it brought the wrong type of tank - Pz IIs in a 37mm gunfight. It was hilly, light "woods", which results in mostly wide open sand with a few patches of rocky - looked like Libya. There was one patch of palms and one wood building on the map. I had more than enough infantry and 2 MMGs, but a shoestring AT defense - 1 37mm ATG, 1 Stuart M5, 1 75mm halftrack (conscript - the rest were green), and 2 zooks. The AI had a platoon of II-Cs plus some PSWs, pioneer infantry and one, count 'em one, Panzer III J.

I was surprised when the conscript 75mm HT not only lived but actually bagged one Pz II. The 37mm ATG put in a most impressive performance - from brush, not dug in, it killed 4 Pz IIs and a PSW, and 5 infantry, expending its whole ammo load to do so. The Stuart also did well, killing the J in a head to head duel when it intervened to help some PSWs (which the Stuart also got), and routing the infantry after the German armor was gone. I also found US MMG and rifle firepower stops people in open desert effectively. I had only 1 man hit and the end score was 100 to 0.

But the AI came back strong when I gave it another chance. This time smaller hills but more "trees", which produced patches of rough and brush over half the map, looking much more like Tunisia. This time the point total was a bit higher and I took a single Sherman, too much infantry, and air support from a P-39. Again the AI had armor and probe odds (also meaning I wasn't dug in). The result showed the AI can be a challenge when it has more than enough decent armor, even when that armor isn't "uber", if you have to stop that armor on a shoestring.

The AI had 8 Pz IIIs this time, plus 3 PSWs and infantry. My lone Sherman was woefully outnumbered, and if felt very much like Kasserine (lol). The P-39 showed early and KOed one Pz III with a very near miss by 500 lb bomb. It made 2 more strafing passes. There were 2 shocked Pz IIIs after the fight but I don't know what got those. One might actually have been from the bomb, judging by a traffic jam the next turn.

I had one foot 50 cal and it empty its ammo shooting at the PSWs. It KOed 1, and shocked another. As for the Sherman the match up was favorable in all but odds, but not favorable enough. The IIIs have 50L42, which by the ratings anyway would be dangerous to the turret front at 400-500 yards - and they started at 600, without LOS. In the event the Sherman played a bit of cat and mouse, missing the PSWs repeatedly, before establishing a decent "crest" hoping to get the Pz IIIs in sequence as they advanced.

They backed up instead and 4 got LOS at once. The first 2 hits bounced but the 3rd hit was gun damage, and the lone Sherman was out of the fight without scoring a hit. It went to broken on the damage, but reversed as it had been ordered that turn. It recovered and made it off the map - not without a few seconds of tension as it slowed over an unseen corner of "rocky" right at the edge, drawing fire as it slowed there.

That left the poor bloody infantry to face what felt like the whole DAK - lol. A big problem is that greens without foxholes in desert brush can be picked up by nearby units at a bit over 100m. Their ambushes were set too close for that, because at 130m my zook hit chances were still read things like "13%, kill fair". I got off all of 5 zook rounds and every one missed.

I unhide my left when the German infantry went that way, and pinned them at least for a couple of minutes. But 7 Pz IIIs rapidly broke anything that fired, and my whole left ran. I encouraged it, even, it was better to get some of them off the map. At the end, one platoon and an MMG remained on my right side and held 2 of the flags to the time limit - with the first attentions of the tanks that way (if a while) just starting.

That resulted in a 43-57 minor loss. Of which the morales are (1) the AI can attack when it has tons of armor, the ground is open, and you don't have tons of AT (though see the previous example - it needs to have serious tanks not light armor) (2) infantry can be quite weak in the desert (I'd have been much better off with fewer men and 2 ATGs, even crappy ones) (3) hiding isn't as easy in Tunisia as in France (lol).

Thanks again to Rune for having us.

[Romulus]

I was wondering if anyone had the chance to use any other Italian AFV (except for the L3) such as the M11/39 or the M13/41.

And what about the Autocannoni (trucks with 75 or 90mm guns)? If you have employed one them, could you please tell me your impressions.

Thanks

Peppe

[YankeeDog]

In the human vs. human fight against Jason, I had some Italian tanks. I know very little about Italian armor, but IIRC they were M13/41s.

I won't give details, as it is from a scenario that is on the CD and I don't want to spoil the fun, but they actually compare quite favorably to most early war British armor. Then some more advance British armor showed up, and they suddenly didn' look so good. . .

For the sake of getting everything in the same place, here is a cut and paste of my comments, which I originally posted in another thread:

Just got back from the preview. All is good. Very Good.

Had a good time playing desert rally against Jasonc - Italian Tankettes vs. Universal Carriers. . .

What I learned today at Rune's house: If you think Italian armor is bad, wait until you see some of the early war British stuff. . .

The game looks simply incredible. For an 'on the fly' release, visually it is as much an advance as CMBB was from CMBO. The dust looks great, and seems to play very well.

I think the big surprise was the sound, though. There has been a dramatic improvement in the entire soundscape. In particular, the Ma Deuce and M1 Garand sound are especially good. Props to the Mad One!!

I surfed through the scenario editor briefly, and there are some interesting units and TOEs to play with, including from the 1944-1945 period that we are all familiar with, including some changes to what had been done in CMBO. While I didn't check to see if every unit in CMBO was in the game, the vast majority certainly are, and I don't think it will be difficult for anyone wanting to create/re-create NWE battles to do so in CMAK.

Anyway, the game looks basically finished. While Rune was appropriately coy about any release date, I would be surprised if it were later than the end of the month. Were I a betting man, I would bet on a demo before Turkey Day.

Thanks again to Rune for playing host. I look forward to playing your stuff once the game comes out!

A couple of more thoughts:

With the new CMBB-style MG modeling, there is a whole group of Allied light armor vehicles that suddenly have a lot more utility. White Scout Cars, M3A1 HTs, Stuarts, etc., are now capable of supressing and eventually breaking substantial numbers of infantry units, especially in the relatively open terrain of the desert where cover is hard to come by.

Of course, it can be a challenge to keep such thin-skinned armor alive long enough to use all that MG ammo. If you can accomplish this, though, one multiple-MG light armored vehicle can easily hold up a substantial infantry advance.

Also, I suspect those playing Americans will really come to appreciate the Garand in the desert where engagement distances are long - the Garand gives American squads good medium to long range firepower without sacrificing decent close range firepower, plus high ammo load counts. As Jason rightly noted, this does mean you have to keep American squads alive/unbroken for longer in order to get your money's worth out of them, but if you can do this, they have a substantial advantage over many other squads in their ability to put out firepower over time.

One more big thanks to Rune!

Cheers,

YD

[Salkin]

I'm really looking forward to CMAK now.

I'm just wondering about desert warfare :

If you loose all your armour is the game pretty much over or can you still use cover to maneuver to a victory flag and hold it for the duration of the game or is armour necessary for success ?

//Salkin

edited for spelling errors

[ November 02, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Salkin ]

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Salkin:

I'm really looking forward to CMAK now.

I'm just wondering about dessert warfare :

I

The thing to remember is that if the enemy attacks with chocolate eclairs, you should return fire with Redi-Whip....

[Urban Shocker]

I just love it when people get cheapies at the expense of speakers of english as a second language. It shows a lot of class.

[Salkin]

The thing to remember is that if the enemy attacks with chocolate eclairs, you should return fire with Redi-Whip....

Yup that's funny all right.

What I meant was desert warfare.

We can't all be professors, smartass. :mad:

//Salkin

swedish regular joe

trying to enjoy a grog game

[ November 02, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Salkin ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Urban Shocker:

I just love it when people get cheapies at the expense of speakers of english as a second language. It shows a lot of class.

I'm just looking forward to two more years of talks on dessert warfare. Or til whenever CMX2 comes out.

[JasonC]

My experience with infantry in the desert so far is that it is pretty defensive, if it faces anything with armor. On moderate vegetation settings, the terrain has enough rough and brush that you can leap frog forward against enemy infantry fire. Especially if you also make full use of dead ground until close. But if he can park a tank at 80m and hose you with MGs, brush doesn't cut it.

Also, these forms of cover reduce the impact of fire, but don't cut long LOS lines the way taller trees do. So to move a long way against multiple MGs, even foot team MGs, you want dead ground or armor support (to intimidate the MGs, or silence them when they fire). Sometimes the rough can channel tanks. But it is hard to remain unseen long enough to ambush them with infantry. ATGs are a better bet than zooks, because 500m engagement is much more likely than 100m.

You should note, however, that my experience of getting spotted in brush before my zooks had a chance may reflect special conditions or ignorance. I've never tried infantry AT ambushes in desert before, and don't know the spotting ranges. My men had no foxholes, and they were green. Those things might make a difference.

[ November 02, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Without giving anything away..is the arty system the same as CMBB?

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Without giving anything away..is the arty system the same as CMBB?

I didn't spend much time playing with Arty, but I did not notice any differences from CMBB. At the very least, I did not notice any new commands available to Arty spotters in the command menu.

The one difference of note, which isn't really a change to the Arty model per se, is that arty barrages (and in fact any HE explosions) will kick up a fair amount of dust under the right conditions. The result is that under an HE barrage can have the same effects as a smoke screen in addition to the casualty/supression effects.

I didn't really look at the Arty model too closely because I wasn't expecting to see much in the way of actual techical model changes. From what I saw, with the exeption of a few well publicized additions like dust modeling, it looks like it is basically the CMBB engine; the new stuff is all in the terrain types, units, improved graphics and sounds, etc.

I am very much looking forward to an improved artillery model, but I think we'll need to wait for CMX2 for that. For now, I think CMAK will give all of us plenty to enjoy.

Cheers,

YD

[Salkin]

Thanks for your answer JasonC.

I really wouldn't mind some more info on the terrain-cover in CMAK.

I mean a cactus and a few bushes can't be the greatest protection for the infantry in the dessert.

If your infantry is running for cover, where is a good place to hide ?

//Salkin

I apologize for my poor english spelling and grammar.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Without giving anything away..is the arty system the same as CMBB?

The one difference of note, which isn't really a change to the Arty model per se, is that arty barrages (and in fact any HE explosions) will kick up a fair amount of dust under the right conditions. The result is that under an HE barrage can have the same effects as a smoke screen in addition to the casualty/supression effects.

Cheers,

YD </font>

[MikeyD]

As a Beta tester its fun to read newbie accounts of the game because we sometimes forget that those cool new features are cool new features!

Greatly improved sound? Oh yeh, that's right! I had forgot what CMBB had sounded like. U.S. 37mm gun performance? Heck, I haven't had one of those guns show up in a scenario for awhile! It's a treat to be reminded just how cool this stuff is.

What's surprising about CMAK is the breadth of the game turned out just about as great as CMBB ever was. From 1940 to 1945, from Roll Royce ACs versus Italian tankettes, to Sherman Fireflies vs late Panther Gs in mountain snowstorms.

[ November 04, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]