Armor Tactics 102?

[Ansbach]

Is it just me, or does armor come down to about 90% technology and 10% tactics? I understand the basics such as using hunt, finding hull down positions, flanking - that kind of thing - but it seems that regardless of actual maneuvering it always just comes down to who has the better tanks. Anyone have some intermediate/advanced tips for dealing with superior armor without superior numbers?

[stikkypixie]

They only advice i can give is this:

LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS!!!

Seriously when engaging bigger, badder foes, know what the outcome will be realisticly. A lone sherman isn't going to KO a Tiger (unless you're a really lucky bastard ). I tend to avoid these kind of situations all together. Only pick fights when you know you can win, unless you have no choice.

Otherwise it's usually going to be a waste of resources.

That sherman (or something else for that matter) could be put to better use to destroy weaker tanks, or blasting away at infantry.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

A lone sherman isn't going to KO a Tiger (unless you're a really lucky bastard ).

I remember this one incident back in CMBO when a single Kingtiger went on rampage and devoured my Shermans and M10s. Eventually it was a Stuart that killed the big cat by penetrating a weak point in the side of its turret.

But anyway, I guess in the end tactics are more important than just who has the "better tank" - which is after all a matter of opinion.

It's not necessarily more difficult to take out a Tiger with a Sherman, than it is to take out a Sherman with a Tiger - it's just different.

[Other Means]

if you're fighting a human opponent you won't take out a KT. your oppo will leave it on a hill & deny you the long fire lanes.

all i can advise for later Axis armour is to make it come to you, don't try and go for it. if it's hunting you, you can choose the time and place. set up ambushes from both sides. get numbers on target. prayer is good. as stikkypixie said, use your tanks for other things while you're waiting for the armour to come for you. but don't give them a shot, because they will kill you.

i'm going to start playing Axis i think. it seems more fun.

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by stikkypixie:

A lone sherman isn't going to KO a Tiger (unless you're a really lucky bastard ).

I remember this one incident back in CMBO when a single Kingtiger went on rampage and devoured my Shermans and M10s. Eventually it was a Stuart that killed the big cat by penetrating a weak point in the side of its turret.

But anyway, I guess in the end tactics are more important than just who has the "better tank" - which is after all a matter of opinion.

It's not necessarily more difficult to take out a Tiger with a Sherman, than it is to take out a Sherman with a Tiger - it's just different. </font>

[Tigrii]

The German ubertanks cost a ton, especially with rarity. If your opponent buys them, he won't have as much other stuff. Don't try to hunt dwon the ubertank. Use your other advantages. Also, demo charges, grenades, RPGs, and flamethrowers don't care how thick your armor is. Try to swarm the ubertank with infantry (I admit it's difficult, especially vs human). Your tanks can deal with enemy inf to open the way for your inf.

[Sirocco]

When you're on the defensive the solution is AT guns. Take them in pairs, at least, and position them so they can target the likely avenues of approach from different angles. Anchor them with HQ's if possible.

In a meeting engagement, or when you're attacking, maneuver your tanks into positions in which they can ambush your opponents heavy tanks, again from different angles.

The most important point to remember is to think of your AT assets in pairs and not singly. Even when you're on even terms - for example a Sherman and a Pz.Kpfw IV - you should aim to use the same tactics.

[Redwolf]

The trick here is to play the odds by numbers.

Everytime there is a tank meeting anywhere you must have several tanks in LOS and he/she must have only one.

Sometimes it's difficult in CM because many scenarios have single vehicles but you can extend things to have one gun and a tank or some infantry.

Also keep in mind that while the enemy stronger tank shoots up one of your tin cans the enemy tank cannot prevent you from doing whatever the heck you want elsewhere, with the midl exceptio of its hull MG which is not very effective. So if there is an unavoidable duel upcoming then at least take the opportunity and rush everybody else who is in sight of the enemy tank to better positions. If you are lucky enough take may also make you win the duel because the enemy tank may get detracted.

A variation of the latter is that you force the enemy into setting bogus cover arcs. By popping units up and down all over the place and having a tank ready to move in he will probably set a cover arc to keep the turret towards where your tank is hanging out. Then you get free movement elsewhere. if he continues to refuse to set the cover arc you can initiate the duel while it is detracted.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by Stikkypixie:

Those pesky Stuart . I only really know them from the Close combat II demo. Took out a panther with it once.

Consider how many tanks you lost just to take out that one KT . I bet the kill ratio was very one sided.

I wish i had BO (the game not the odour) though, would like to see that replay (if you saved it).

Sorry no savegame - just some nostalgic memories...

The kill-ratio was about 6 to 1, as far as I can remember, but the KT's experience was crack or higher - so it was worth it, I guess.

[MikeyD]

Facing übertanks my only advice is to use the one weapon that I so badly missed on the Russian front... SMOKE! 75mm gun Sherman smoke, artillery smoke, mortar smoke. Use it early and often. You'll either blind him as you maneuver or you'll force him to relocate out of his 'ideal' position.

...that is unless its a windy/rainy day. In that case you're skewered.

[Falcon988]

I always play Axis against my opponent in CMBB so I have a lot of experience with the German ubertanks. As a matter of fact I recently started a battle against the AI that takes place during Kursk.

The King Tiger, put simply, is a beast. My advice is to stay far far away. I remember one late war 1945 battle we played I had a very depleted force of German infantry trying to break out of a Russian encirclement. It would've been tough except that I was provided with two King Tigers. Let me tell you, with those things I blew a -huge- hole in his lines and got my force through. He lost many a T-34 trying to stop me too. Poor fellow. He gets his revenge in CMAK and CMBO though where I play Allies.

[kingjames]

I also have disabled a KT with a Stuart. And like you it was after I had lost 3 shermans and a Hell cat. If I remember correctly I bounced 27 shots off the KT over 1&1\2 turns as it came over the hill. I was sitting in the bottom lookin up. It them proceeded to toast them one by one. After the carnage I put the stuart on suicide mission and it flanked and disabled the King. I also took out a king with the m18, attacking with 3 at once, and got behind it. Beasts they are. At the moment I am trying to figure out what I am to do in a current pbem game. I know he has at least two tigers, and a couple of armor cars, I have two m4a3's and a stuart. I am kind of out gunned. Say your goodbyes now.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by kingjames:

I also have disabled a KT with a Stuart. [&c]

Hehe. Now when we get a third confirmation of a Stuart killing (or disabling for that reason) a KT, we can assume it a valid tactic to use Stuarts versus German Übertanks.

But in any case, those little 37-mm guns of theirs seem to be much more dangerous than one would expect. I recall several occasions, playing the "Wittman: Villers-Bocage" Scenario (It's one of my favs) when a Stuart damaged my Tiger's gun or tracks - especially as the city buildings give plenty of cover for them to get close enough so that their shots really hurt.

And yet another suggestion for dealing with superior armor:

For QBs I often buy some CAS, especially when I expect enemy heavy tanks. I know many people dislike it, but I haven't had much problems with friendly fire yet (maybe I'm just lucky?). It certainly is a gamble: You won't be able to kill a whole platoon of enemy tanks with a single airstrike, but killing the right tank at the right time might give you just the edge you need to get the upper hand - and considering the price of CAS versus artillery, you won't get that much artillery that can knock out a tank and at the same time can be called in fast enough to hit it before it moves away and doesn't cost more than the tank you're killing with it.

[MikeyD]

I recall back on the CMBO board there were LOTS of incidents involving Stuarts getting lucky kills on KT "turret front penetration at weak point" (widely interpreted to be through the coax mg slit).

Don't try this in CMBB, though. 'Death clock' combined with multi penetration for low caliber weapons made Stuarts much more vulnerable facing heavy armor. Of course CMAK doesn't field the KT but it still operates the death clock/multi-penetration combo which makes light guns vs hvy armor an iffy proposition.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

For QBs I often buy some CAS, especially when I expect enemy heavy tanks. I know many people dislike it, but I haven't had much problems with friendly fire yet (maybe I'm just lucky?).

It has nothing to do with luck: if the enemy actually has vehicles, especially valuable tanks, then everything will be all right.

The air support unrealism we complain about is when you attack west-east, with tanks and the defender has no tanks. The way that the airplanes start attacking your advancing troops (in the direction the pilot knows the war goes, and not under fire yet) is not realistic.

Or in other words: the problem with CM air support is that if there is no enemy visible then the chance of friendly fire increases. In reality the chance of friendly fire would at best stay the same if the enemy doesn't show up, and it would probably even shrink. Bombing the wrong target from looking down on a heavy firefight is more likely than outright bombing standalone friendlies.

In CM that is reversed.

[MikeyD]

Hey, forget about tanks. CM air support LOOOOOVES bombing TRUCKS and it doesn't seem to make much difference whos truck it is!

In past posts I've humorously suggested a gamey defense against air strikes by parking a couple trucks in an open-but-out-of-the-way spot on the map. Chances greatly increase that he will drop his ordnance on the trucks instead of the combatants.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by redwolf:

the problem with CM air support is that if there is no enemy visible then the chance of friendly fire increases. In reality the chance of friendly fire would at best stay the same if the enemy doesn't show up, and it would probably even shrink. Bombing the wrong target from looking down on a heavy firefight is more likely than outright bombing standalone friendlies.

Didn't recognize CAS was handled like this.

I should take that into consideration next time I use CAS.

Originally posted by MikeyD:

In past posts I've humorously suggested a gamey defense against air strikes by parking a couple trucks in an open-but-out-of-the-way spot on the map. Chances greatly increase that he will drop his ordnance on the trucks instead of the combatants.

Hehe, I'll have to try that out next time I set up a QB.

[Fredi]

Is it just me, or does armor come down to about 90% technology and 10% tactics?

Depending on the battlefield circumstances, you may be right.

When I was a tanker in the army we abstractly described a tank as a triangle with each point representing in turn, firepower, protection and mobility. The area or "sum" of the triangle was its effectiveness.

On top of that you would apply battlefield tactics to make up for any shortcomings or to improve your strong points.

So yes, its alot about tank technology, but battlefield tactics can help overcome or improve the odds.

Consider the invasion of France in 1940 where the German tanks were inferior to those of the enemy but still won the day due to tactics(and some strategy heh).

Also consider "Die Maus" with heavy armor and armament but almost no mobility which meant it was probably about as useful as a pillbox...