Looking for info for CM Campaign Game - Scheldt Fortress North - OB German, Allied

[Michael Dorosh]

I finally found the means to make a strategic layer for CM and think I may have it up and running for playtest by this weekend. I'm using the VASSAL engine and a counter and mapboard interface, which may seem hokey but also eliminates the need for math, Excel spreadsheets, cocat version 1923.329 etc.

As my testbed, I am using the campaign to open South Beveland and Walcheren Island. It's a nice size campaign, with approximately 3 Divisions per side, but with a narrow frontage meaning the number of CM battles generated will be small, but will be a steady stream of them. South Beveland and Walcheren Island are to the north of the Scheldt Estuary as in the maps below.

Should be playable by two or more, as long as all have the VASSAL engine and the appropriate downloads.

What I am requesting

A) GERMAN INFANTRY DIVISION 70, INFANTRY DIVISION 346, KAMPFGRUPPE CHILL, STUG BRIGADE 244, STUG BRIGADE 667

I am requesting info on the German 346th and 70th Infanterie Divisions, specifically any info on artillery assets as well as the number of German StuG units (as well as types and strengths) involved in the fighting, from 6 October and the 2nd Canadian Division assaults near Woensdrecht/Hoogerheide/Ossendrecht up to the final assaults on Walcheren Island in the first week of November by the British Special Service Brigade as well as 52nd Lowland Division.

StuG assets seem to have been from Army Assault Gun Brigade 244 and Army Assault Artillery Brigade 667 - any info on these guys?

BRITISH 4TH SS BRIGADE

If anyone as OB info for the British SS Brigade, I'd be indebted for that as well though I suspect I may have it already.

C) RAF AND RCAF SQUADRONS/GROUPS

If anyone can identify the ground attack units of the RAF and RCAF operating in this area, as well as approximate numbers and aircraft types, that would be of interest. I am checking RCAF.com as well.

D) MAP ASSISTANCE

I plan to do the most famous battle sites from aerial photos and wartime maps, and doing generic maps for the rest. The CM maps will conform to a grid layed over a large size political map.

If anyone has a detailed knowledge of the terrain in this area, or access to such info, and wants to donate time doing maps, I'd naturally credit you for any work you did.

http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/chill.htm

I have some stuff on Battle Group Chill and the German divisions as above. If I am missing any forces, I'd like to know about that as well.

The overall battle of the Scheldt is shown below. If this works out, similar treatment could be given to Scheldt Fortress South, known to the Allies as The Breskens Pocket; this fighting took place to the south of the Estuary.

Thanks in advance for any assistance that can be provided.

[JonS]

I have some stuff on 2TAF and 4SSBde. I should be able to get it to you by late tomorrow.

What's VASSAL?

[Michael Dorosh]

I think the URL is www.vassalengine.org (I am at work).

It is a java-based program that lets you recreate mapboards and pieces and then manipulate them - you can stack, flip counters, mark pieces as moved, there is a dice roller that will also output text (say you want to determine weather randomly, for example - instead of rolling a die and crossreferencing a table, you just get the text result - OVERCAST, RAIN, CLEAR etc.

I'm just getting into all the features now. The penultimate application seems to be using it for Advanced Squad Leader - check out VASL.org They have the system very advanced there - it remembers SAN numbers, can actually check LOS on standard mapboard configurations using a LOS "thread" built into the virtual world, etc.

Oh, and it has an online chat feature built into the game, so both players (or more, and any spectators) can watch and interact in real time.

Can also, naturally, be used for solitaire stuff - the Vassal Engine does not provide an AI or know any rules, it just lets you manipulate physical game components in a virtual environment.

[McAuliffe]

Hi Michael,

Although I don't understand not even the general idea of what you are trying to put together, I am willing to offer some assistance and input wherever I can. Since I grew up in the area and remembered my father telling about the fierce fighting in the woods north of Antwerp, I have been reading and tried to find some information on the forces involved.

Unfortunately, local accounts give only very few details about the equipment and units. The best you can hope for are descriptions like: "units of the Dutch SS" resisted or "heavy fire" of "German tanks" pushed back "the Canadians" there and there. Don't forget that the Germans actually put in line remnants of what had escaped from France. A big part had been trapped in the Breskens pocket and were only able to escape by crossing the Scheldt Estuary at Flushing, leaving their armor and heavy weapons behind for the defenders of the pocket. The survivors reached the mainland via the South Beveland Ishtmus, only to be recuperated by 'group' Chill that initially only consisted of a batallion of Paratroopers or so who had to defend the acces to the Isthmus, the only escape route for the Germans. As more Germans were able to escape (The allies where focusing on Arnhem) Battlegroup Chill could reinforce but it consisted of bits and pieces that were recovered of other units.

I tried to make some CMBO scenario's for this forgotten episode. The Operation Swithback (Breskens Pocket)you can find on my homepage. I have also somewhere a scenario depicting the dramatic attack near Woensdrecht of the Black Watch on Friday October...the 13th. Anyway I will try to dig up some topomaps. But bear in mind that the whole area has changed dramatically, due to the expansion of the port of Antwerp .

[Michael Dorosh]

Black Friday!

I appreciate any help you can give in that regard; I remember your Switchback scenario which I downloaded in my CMBO days.

I talked briefly via internet to a German veteran of the battle, which was a bit of a treat, as he posted a lengthy account including a map showing his positions. Unfortunately it was short on orders of battle etc, but was an interesting read.

My own Regiment fought in Hoogerheide and at Woensdrecht - our carrier platoon finally cleared the railway station at Korteven if I am not mistaken.

Even a general idea of towns and villages and elevations would be a start; I don't think the maps need be picture perfect or for that matter too terribly accurate beyond general coastline and town details. But if you can help, that would be some icing on the cake.

Eventually Chill had 4000 men, with 2600 combat effectives (the others were rear area troops from what I have read in the Canadian histories of the battle).

[Tifosi]

I can help you with the British SS Brigade - they never saw combat. It was decided by someone in Berlin that, fascists or not, a British SS brigade would be too politically unreliable. All memebers survived the war and were executed by His Majesties government for treason.

[GJK]

What's neat about using Vassal, once the module that Mike is making gets distributed, it will become like an opponent finding service as well. When you log onto Vassal and select the room for this module, you will be in the "Guest room" where everybody can text chat. Sub-rooms will hold the actual campaigns as they're being played. Visitors can enter the room and politely ask if they can "sync". If the guys playing the campaign have no problem with that, then you sync your screen with the battlefield and you then will see all the moves being made in real time.

I suppose though, that the campaign map wont have too much action on it while the CM battles are being fought, but I may be wrong - not entirely sure what Mike is cooking up over there either.

[Tifosi]

Michael - a bit more digging unearthed this:

British SS Friekorps

They were the only British SS unit I am aware of, hope this helps!

Also try www.raf.mod.uk for info on RAF operations, in any campaign.

[ October 19, 2004, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Tifosi ]

[JonS]

Tifosi - SS in this case means Special Service, not Schutz Staffel (or whatever. I'm not a Blockhead grog, so shoot me). I.e., Commandos, not Krauts

[ October 19, 2004, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[JonS]

Michael - what level of detail are you after?

4th SS Bde

. 41 (RM) Cdo

. 46 (RM) Cdo

. 47 (RM) Cdo

. 48 (RM) Cdo

(However, see P.S. below)

2nd TAF

. 84 (Comp) Gp

. . 35th Recce Wing

. . . 2 Sqn (18 x P-51)

. . . 4 Sqn (18 x Mosquito)

. . . 268 Sqn (18 x P-51)

. . 123 Fghtr Bmbr Wing (2 Sqns, 36 x Typhoon)

. . 131 Fghtr Wing (Polish) (3 Sqns, 56 x Spitfire)

. . 132 Fghtr Wing (Norwegian) (3 Sqns, 56 x Spitfire)

. . 133 Fghtr Wing (Polish) (3 Sqns, 56 x Spitfire)

. . 134 Fghtr Wing (Czechoslovak) (2 Sqns, 36 x Spitfire)

. . 135 Fghtr Wing (3 Sqns, 56 x Spitfire)

. . 136 Fghtr Bmbr Wing (4 Sqns, 74 x Typhoon)

. . 145 Fghtr Wing (French) (3 Sqns, 56 x Spitfire)

. . 146 Fghtr Bmbr Wing (3 Sqns, 56 x Typhoon)

Here is 84 Gp as an organigram, though it is rather hard to follow with all the changes, additions, and deletions.

83 (Comp) Gp, with all the Canadian Sqns, supported 2nd British Army. You could reasonably cross-attach some to 84 Gp for your campaign if you wished. You will also want to make some 2 (Bmbr) Gp sqns available. Their organigram can be found here.

Note that all of the above info (incl 4 SS Bde) is based on things as they were at Normandy.

Air Support during Op SWITCHBACK (Breskens Pocket)

Regards

JonS

P.S. Have you checked "Salt's Snippets"? Among other things Walcherian, it contains the following:

Army and Royal Marine Commandos, 1st November 1944 [WO291/873]

The following are the total strengths of Commandos participating in the Westkapelle assault on Walcheren:

41 RM Cdo . . 420 all ranks

47 RM Cdo . . 387 all ranks

48 RM Cdo . . 432 all ranks

Elems 10 (Inter-Allied) Cdo . 189 all ranks

4 Cdo . . . . . About 512 all ranks, incl. French troops of 10 (IA) Cdo

"Elems 10 (Inter-Allied) Cdo" include No.1 (French) Tp, No.2 (Dutch) Tp, No.4 (Belgian) Tp, No.5 (Norwegian) Tp, and No.8 (French) Tp. Commandos on Walcheren (incl a reasonably good summary of the battle, and a fairly detailed Allied OoB).

[ October 19, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Tifosi]

D'oh! lol nor am I really, but I saw a documentary on the History channel about these guys recently!

Although why he couldn't just say RM commandos... :confused:

I'll just get my coat....

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks Jon - Tifosi, most texts do refer to the British SS Brigade, and it sounds neat so I use it. The Canadian Army official history refers to them as such I think.

Good stuff, Jon - with regards to the SS Brigade, the level of detail I need only has to go as deep as CM does; ie a rough approximation of how many sections per platoon per company per battalion and which combat support platoons they had... I'll dig around the sources you suggest. EDIT - actually, found a good article in ASL Annual which is perfect for my needs - outlines the number of squads and weapons/crews. The figures also match Salt's figures for number of men. Thanks for that.

I know next to F all about the Air Force so the info you provide is probably exactly what I was looking for, thanks again.

Here is a peek: Gary, I'll probably send you a draft of the rules later in the week, perhaps on the weekend. Making counters is too addictive to write rules right now...

[ October 19, 2004, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Mad Russian]

Stug Bde 244 seems to have been in your area, but Army Assault Artillery Brigade 667 seems never to have left Russia. I have no specific information on equipment, either numbers or type just yet.

I have "Battle for Antwerp: The Liberation of the City and the Opening of the Scheldt 1944" by J.L. Moulton though and I'll see what there is in it about your campaign. I thought I had a book on the fighting around Walcheren Island as well. I'll have to look around and see what I have that might help.

Good Hunting.

[painfbat]

Michael,

I have a pre-war topomap of that area, also used by the Dutch Army during the 40's. With some luck you'll have it next friday.

greatings,

Painfbat

[JonS]

Michael,

there is some stuff about the four German units you mention (excepting Chill) in Nafzigers "Infantry" and "Panzers and Artillery". If you don't have access to them, I can transcribe it ... later.

Jon

[Michael Dorosh]

I'm afraid I don't have access to Nafziger - any help you can give would be good.

painfbat - thanks very much! That sounds awesome and just what I was looking for!

The links to the 2TAF were interesting; the more research I do the more interested I get and the more detail I want to add to the project - not always a good thing.

I'm trying to represent all this in the editor with October 1944 Italy in mind. I hate switching dates, and the whole point of this campaign is to be easy to use. For that reason, I am thinking of representing the Commando Troops with British Recon platoons - they have fewer men than infantry sections but more SMGs which I "feel" is more accurate for Commandos? Another option is Engineers, I suppose. Airborne was my first choice, but require too much monkeying around in the editor. Unless someone has a better suggestion?

I am going to reread Blackburn and see how best to portray the artillery.

Some other musings and questions

Divisional Support - 52nd Lowland Division

When 52nd Lowland moved to South Beveland - did their divisional artillery accompany them? What about RASC units - I am wondering about troop lift capacity for strategic redeployments. 2nd Canadian Division had their RCASC units and could "lift" a Brigade's worth. 79th Armoured seems tohave had its hands full in the Breskens pocket so I am thinking 1 Canadian APC regiment should not be available for tactical moves.

German heavy armour

I'd also like to include some options as far as reinforcements go, perhaps deviating from the historical norm but within the realm of possibility for the time. 4th Canadian Armoured, for example, moved north to Bergen op Zoom and continued to fight away from the Beveland area. What about German armour? Were the Scheldt fortresses written off, or were there any kind of plans to reinforce with heavier armour at any point?

German artillery and OB

For now,I am going to represent the 70th Infantry Division as having two 1944 style Grenadier regiments, with divisional assets as outlined on the link JonS gave me, pending any surprises by Nafziger. The link only mentions two battalions, I presume 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 companies as Grenadier companies and 4 and 8 as MG companies (with 120mm Mortars under command as well).

Commando Reinforcements

I'm going to prohibit the reinforcement of Commando units during the campaign - my guess would be that Commando units were highly trained and did not have a steady stream of reinforcements - rather they were used for special missions and withdrawn quickly?

Reconnaissance

I am going to omit reconnaissance units from the Allied side as all enemy units will be visible to both players at all times for simplicity sake - also, given the open terrain in the area, I don't know that the Allies were ever really surprised by

whom they were facing (unlike II SS Pz Korps at Arnhem). 8th Canadian Recce regiment (the divisional recce asset for 2 Cdn Div) seems to have acted independently in any event, single handedly liberating North Beveland, and I'll probably leave that aspect of the campaign out altogether.

However, I presume German reconnaissance assets were employed as infantry. Was the divisional Fusilier battalion considered a headquarters defence asset, a reconaissance asset, an additional infantry battalion, or all of the above?

Overall Goal

The campaign will cover the territory from Merxem (just north of Antwerp) to Bergen Op Zoom, and then west along the South Beveland Peninsula. The main Allied goal will be to clear the artillery batteries from Walcheren Island and thus open the Scheldt Estuary to water traffic and allow use of the port of Antwerp. The dates will be 6 October to 31 October 1944. Historically, Walcheren Island finally fell I believe on 2 November. There will need to be some sliding scale of victory, I think, dependent on how fast the Allies can secure the peninsula and island, and how costly it is for them.

I guess playtesting will determine how accurately CM can be used to parrot an actual strategic campaign - or how accurate the research going into its recreation is...

[Tifosi]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Thanks Jon - Tifosi, most texts do refer to the British SS Brigade, and it sounds neat so I use it.

Have to admit that until stumbling across CM, I never had much interest in the land war - airborne and naval have always been more my fields of interest.

Maybe time I read up on it some, huh?

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Divisional Support - 52nd Lowland Division

When 52nd Lowland moved to South Beveland - did their divisional artillery accompany them? What about RASC units - I am wondering about troop lift capacity for strategic redeployments. 2nd Canadian Division had their RCASC units and could "lift" a Brigade's worth. 79th Armoured seems to have had its hands full in the Breskens pocket so I am thinking 1 Canadian APC regiment should not be available for tactical moves.

IIRC, 52nd was designated as a 'mountain' div, which would _tend_ to indicate a lighter scale of equipt - perhaps no 17-pr, perhaps 75mm Pack How instead of 25-pr, perhaps a generally lighter scale of spt units? For example, it was intended to fly two of the bdes, plus their supporting arms, into Deelen airfield as part of Market Garden. Fairly limited usefullness OoB of 52Div. This or this (scroll down) might be better.

In a slightly different vein, from here: "The 52nd Div. would play a significant part in the battles of 1945, but in October 1944 its performance was not impressive."

79th Armd Div was fairly heavily involved in Walcheren (no surprises there). See Salt's Snippets for details.

German heavy armour

I'd also like to include some options as far as reinforcements go, perhaps deviating from the historical norm but within the realm of possibility for the time.

Given the general paucity of German armour in the west at this time, and the nature of the terrain in this area, and the type of units deployed in this area, heavy Geramn armour (heck, _any_ German armour other than StuGs) strikes me as extremly unlikely. Good for l337 :cool:ness factor, bad for historical fidelity. IMO

German artillery and OB

For now,I am going to represent the 70th Infantry Division as having two 1944 style Grenadier regiments, with divisional assets as outlined on the link JonS gave me, pending any surprises by Nafziger. The link only mentions two battalions, I presume 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 companies as Grenadier companies and 4 and 8 as MG companies (with 120mm Mortars under command as well).

Going from memory (it was a very short entry), 70th was a static div formed on 17 July 1944, from six security bns. It had 3 regts, each of 2 Gren bns. It also had a fusilier bn, and an arty regt of 3 bns. My guess would be low quality manpower, and low priority for equipt (= shortages, and second rate for stuff they do hold. For example, 50mm instead of 75mm ATGs.)

Commando Reinforcements

I'm going to prohibit the reinforcement of Commando units during the campaign - my guess would be that Commando units were highly trained and did not have a steady stream of reinforcements - rather they were used for special missions and withdrawn quickly?

Sounds reasonable. On Walcheren, for example, from what I can tell they were in action for 3-4 days, then pulled out. Also, again from what I can tell, their only involvement in the area was on Walcheren. In Normandy they were in the line for a very extended period, but that was different.

Jon

P.S. Tifosi - they were renamed Commando Brigades in late 44 early 45.

[ October 20, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks again, Jon. I agree re: Germany heavy armour.

incidentally, I do have Bouchery as well as info on Div orbats from my old Tommy website which I gleaned from an official British publication listing all the div orbats of WW II, so I suspect I have at least the names of the units right. I suppose I need to lay hands on a good divisional history, or perhaps an artillery history. Blackburn mentions some of the Brit medium regiments seconded to 1st Canadian Army and specifically mentions which regiments were on the Beveland peninsula. Haven't scanned far enough ahead to see if he mentioned 52nd Div or not.

I'll scan my Falconer and see which other Canadian Med, Hvy etc. regiments may have been involved. I wonder if any Brit artillery regiments would have provided fire support from the other side of the Scheldt?

[JonS]

I think there is only one history of 52nd - "Mountain and Flood" (or somefink like that).

ISTR that arty spt was provided from the south bank. It would seem to be an obvious thing to do, depending on the width of the Scheldt, at least for the landings on W. Hrm. Will check Bidwell and Pemberton. Have you checked the DHH online CMHQ and AHQ archives?

[Steve McClaire]

From Nafziger:

70.I.D. - Confirms the information given earlier by JonS. 157th, 159th, and 236th Gren. Rgt. each of 2 bns. Fusilier bn 70 and 70th Art. Rgt. with 3 bn.

346.I.D. - Formed in 1942 as a static division with 857th and 858th Fortress Infantry Regiments (2 bns and 3 bns respectively) and the 346th Artillery Regiment (2 bn). 857th was filled out by absorbing the 630th Ost Bn. It was ordered to reform as a Type 44 division in March 1944. Orders were issued in May 1944 for some of its heavy weapons to be upgraded (included below). He gives the intended organization as:

3 Grenadier Regiments of 2 Bn each: 3 Companies (13 LMG & 2 8cm mortar ea) and 1 MG Company (12 HMG, 6 8cm mortar) per bn. Regimental units were bicycle platoon, pioneer platoon, IG company (2 15cm and 6 7.5cm IG), and PzJg coy (3 7.5cm and 3 5cm ATG plus 36 Panzerschreck).

Fusilier Bn: Same as infantry Bn but one company on bicycles.

Panzerjaeger Bn: 1 coy 12 x SP 20mm Flak, 1 Coy 14 x SP 7.5cm AT, 1 StuG coy (16 StuG).

Artillery Rgt: 1st-3rd Bn w/ 12 x 10.5cm, 4th Bn w/ 12 x 15cm.

Pioneer Bn: 3 coy w/ 2 HMG, 9 LMG, 6 flamethrowers and 2 8cm mortar each. One coy on bicycles.

Feldersatz Bn w/ 5 companies.

He also notes that the 346.I.D. absorbed 17th Admin Coy from the disbanded 17th Luft. Field Division on 28th October 1944.

Stug. Bde. 244 - nothing specific about this unit is listed, other than showing it as an operational StuG unit as of Jan 1944. Generic organization was 3 batteries of 14 StuG each plus a pioneer/recon plt and a flak platoon (SP 20mm flak) in the HQ company.

Hope that helps.

[Michael Dorosh]

Excellent, Steve. Now I am confused, though - one of the links Jon gave listed Grenadier Regiment 1020 and 1019, which I presumed were beloning to 70 ID, I take it then that they were independent? (They were listed on the Walcheren site, and also as having two battalions each, which is why I mentioned that earlier).

Interesting.

[Steve McClaire]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

... one of the links Jon gave listed Grenadier Regiment 1020 and 1019, which I presumed were beloning to 70 ID...

Nafziger just gives the original designation of the regiments when they were first formed. I would guess they were probably re-designated with the other numbers when they were re-formed as Type 44 Grenadier Regiments. This site lists 70.ID as having 1018, 1019, and 1020th Grenadier Regiments.

[JonS]

Michael - are you sure about the German 346th Inf Div? That div was present on the east flank (Orne Bridgehead) of the Normandy battles, and AFAIK was destroyed there.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by JonS:

Michael - are you sure about the German 346th Inf Div? That div was present on the east flank (Orne Bridgehead) of the Normandy battles, and AFAIK was destroyed there.

According to this site, the 346th ID withdrew out of the pocket and across the Seine, although it suffered heavily during the time.