Are Ambushes Under-Modeled?

[Sanok]

In my pbem games, I've been paying close attention to the first shots fired by forces that have just ambushed an approaching enemy. The first shots fired by the ambushers seem to be very ineffective in killing anything, even against targets in open ground.

Do I just have a bunch of bad shots or is there an under-modeling of the first shots fired?

[JasonC]

First shots aren't any more lethal than other ones. They have large effects in only the following ways.

1 - if the target is using "move" to save fatigue, they are more likely to panic, particularly in open ground. This is not a function of first shot but of the target's movement state. "Move" is a "relaxed" form of movement that saves fatigue but takes fire poorly. Once the enemy knows you are there, he is more likely to use better orders like "advance", or to avoid movement under fire altogether.

2 - if you pin them they don't fire back and pin you, so you can continue to hit them repeatedly. If they have overwatch friends to pin you back, you won't get this. But especially in tight terrain with short initial range, if they don't have fast help you can frequently send them "heads down" permanently.

3 - if you set up a good initial engagement, you presumably open with lots of shooters at lethal ranges. One LMG isn't going to do diddly, you need full platoons or more firing into the open at 100m or less. If you have it, you will usually scatter the men hit without any loss yourself, other than ammo. Notice, this result does not depend on some special impact of the first shots themselves. It is just snowballing pin state differences, plus full minutes of fire by lots of weapons at their best ranges.

The most common mistake made in these matters by new players is expecting tiny forces to be able to do anything to significantly larger ones, just because they shoot first. Doesn't happen.

[Berlichtingen]

Try to form an L shaped ambush... they are freakin' devastating. Close ranged frontal fire combined with close range flanking fire will kill or break anything in the zone

[PLM]

Seems to me that there should be soemthing of a bonus on killing power particularly in ambushes. Seems to me that the effects of morale and stress on kill power would be somewhat dulled for an ambushing unit, a unit not under fire at all certainly should be able to kill better, even in the exact same morale state, as a unit thats under fire. Even a minority of a squad marking their targets and firing simultaneously, if it can be achieved and at close range, should have more of an effect I think.

Maybe the first penalty on a unit for morale should be "under fire." So a unit not under fire can operate better than one under fire, but still managing to keep morale 'unnaffected.' I'd think there would be a distinct difference between the actions of soldiers under fire and those that arent under fire but firing from outside the immediate enemy target area.

[MikeyD]

CMBO has the 'AMBUSH' command which I recall was devastating for anyone walking through it. Only problem was - according to some - it got significantly overused. BFC switched to cover arcs as an alternative. I still recall some old CMBO players crying 'Ouch!' when they found the Ambush command gone from CMBB.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I still recall some old CMBO players crying 'Ouch!' when they found the Ambush command gone from CMBB.

Really? I was very relieved that they went to the arc ambush system. So much better than the Target ambush method of CMBO. The target method was very limiting because if your intended ambush target changed course and didn't go near the ambush target then the ambush is never triggered. Very disapointing to set an ambush only to see it not triggered because the tank moved 15 meters away from the ambush point.

The arc method improves ambushes although it's not perfect. It's hard to get multiple units to open up at the exact same time.

[MikeyD]

Oh, yeh. I much prefer cover arcs, myself. But remember for ambush command to be considered gamey its must've been working 'too well' in the hands of some! And it was these guys who cried 'ouch!'

Rather like those proposed/supposed new relative spotting rules in CMx2. The CM1 players who use 'borg spotting' to their advantage are liable to howl in pain when their favorite tactics suddenly stop working under the new system.

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Try to form an L shaped ambush... they are freakin' devastating. Close ranged frontal fire combined with close range flanking fire will kill or break anything in the zone

Thanks for the flashback.....Thua Thien Province, RVN....May 15, 1967, oooh it hurt!!!!!

[JasonC]

Simple experiment. A German infantry platoon, standard pattern with LMG, SMG, 8 rifles per squad, is in woods on their side of a field. 3 squads facing the enemy, one a bit off to the wrong side with weak, near LOS to the approach field. HQ with them, a bit farther back in the woods but with LOS forward.

A lax Russian platoon, 4 squad 2 standard 2 H pattern (mid 1943) approaches, plus one MMG to make the points and manpower numbers even. The Russians have one half squad leading on "move to contact", but the rest are right behind it on "move". Specifically, 2nd standard squad and half squad with LMG only about 25m behind, HQ a bit behind them, 2 H squads another 25m or so behind. The MMG is just leaving the scattered tree jump off area, and is about 50m behind the rest. The whole field to cross is about 150m or so. Simulates lax advance into an unexpected ambush by a "travelling" formation.

All units regular on both sides, Russian HQ has +1 morale, Germans have +1 everything but morale.

Germans initially have covered arcs set at 60-100m, staggered distances to overlap properly. But they see the approaching half squad at an "intermediary" minute, right before it enters their zones.

If they leave the covered arcs the ambush won't be conducted very well. See, only the first half squad will cross the arcs before the triggers, it will go to ground and be shot to rags. But the Germans then have arcs too short for the rest of the Russians. Indeed, if the Russians were all on "move to contact" they would then, properly, hit the deck outside of the German arcs and fire back, not hit yet themselves. (If they properly left the MMG and H squads overwatching from the previous treeline, they'd do even better).

Instead the Germans remove their arcs and hide the 3 front squads. The squad with limited crossing LOS gets a 70m arc that cuts right in front of the others. The HQ doesn't hide (to maintain full spots) and gets a short, 40m arc.

As a result, the "tripping" minute goes as follows. Half squad enters arc of HQ and takes fire. Hits the deck. Other Russians on "move" accelerate to run - wrong answer. One is pinned by the crossing arc of the "back" squad. The other approaches the actual woods location of a hiding German squad without an arc. That German unhides by tac AI "override" as the Russian gets within 20m.

And that unhiding squad KOs the entering Russian completely. You had a running squad of 9 men in the open, at 20m from a hiding squad of 10 in woods. Result - complete KIA. This is the special, boosted fire effect from trying to enter an enemy location against an unsuppressed shooter.

In the remainder of the minute, the German HQ and back squad blow up the point half squad. The unhiding squad has no arc, so it can fire to any depth. At the end of the minute, there are 17 Russians down, two remaining units pinned. The MMG is not pinned but has 28 second set up time. One of the H squads is not pinned.

The Russians then order everyone to go stationary and fire back. I know some will rout, but everyone who can must try to reduce the incoming fire as that happens.

The Germans on their side unhide the remaining 2 squads, no arcs, and send the one with poor LOS to the front tree line, using a short "assault", which will take them only 20 seconds or so.

At the end of the second minute, the first after new orders since the ambush began, there are 40 dead Russians, 2 routed riflemen, and 3 routed and tired machinegunners. 1 German was hit.

Seems to me ambushes work just fine. But the original poster might be experiencing failures of his whole ambushing force to fire at all the available targets in the triggering minute, if he has them all on arcs. They might all be hitting the absolute point and little else. That gives enemies on proper "move to contact" orders, a chance to stop outside the ambush zone.

In addition, an ambush started too far, at 100-200m, can easily find a properly cautious attacker with half or more of his men in overwatch positions, triggering a merely even firefight in the following minute.

Last, he might be expecting single shooters to make some impression on whole platoons. I showed an equal sized ambush force, to the ambush-ees, and an absolute scale of a full platoon, not one MG or something. Equal size and platoon or larger can give a clean kill of the equal sized enemy force, very rapidly. The platoon that does it can then deal with other forces, addressing attacker odds that way.

[MikeyD]

Ah, the last post reminded me of the different weapons types. An ambush set at 90m+ using a smg squad won't do much of anything. An ambush using rifles and lmgs should do some damage. An ambush using smgs at CLOSE house-to-house range should be murder!

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

Thanks for the flashback.....Thua Thien Province, RVN....May 15, 1967, oooh it hurt!!!!!

You didn't need to flashback that far... only as far as our last game. I seem to recall some British infantry walking into a near perfect L shaped ambush. Not many walked out

[CRSutton]

It really comes down to firepower. If you got enough of it, you are going to wipe out the enemy. SMG squads are the best for that. Flame throwers too. Experience is a big factor as well as leadership bonuses. If the enemy is in the open, it should be wiped out, or break at the least. I have not seen any problems with ambushes in my games.

That is why you send the half squad out on point. Better to lose it that the whole platoon.

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nidan1:

Thanks for the flashback.....Thua Thien Province, RVN....May 15, 1967, oooh it hurt!!!!!

You didn't need to flashback that far... only as far as our last game. I seem to recall some British infantry walking into a near perfect L shaped ambush. Not many walked out </font>

[JasonC]

Weapons smeapons, firepower smire (ok I give it up). Any platoon in cover that holds its fire to close range and hits infantry in the open will mess them up. Green Rumanians with rifles, doesn't matter. 40 armed men unpinned firing at close range with anything at men in the open, the men in the open go down. It is not about the weapon match up, it is about the pin differential created by the first few shots. It snowballs.

[JasonC]

To prove it isn't weapons, I ran the following additional fight. The defenders are a green Rumanian rifle platoon with 1 ZB-37 MG added. The commander is +1 combat, nothing else. The attackers are company HQ and 2 SMG platoons, 9 man variety. The company has +2 command and +1 morale, while one of the platoon HQs is +2 morale. And they are regulars. Their handicap? They get to advance on a wood held by the Rumanians who start hidden, and the AI commands them.

There is cover within 80m of the wood they are to approach, and the AI uses it. The Rumanians hold their fire for a very long time. When the ZB opens up at 24 meters, it jams after stopping the first half squad there, without many other units helping it. It loses 3 men to reply fire in the ambush minute, and 5 by the time the intense firefight is over. Some Russians almost make it into the same woods, but are stopped by a squad nearby coming off hide.

End result? 53 Russians down and one half squad ran off the board. A few remnants cowering in scattered trees 250m from the Rumanians. The Rumanians lost 13 men, 5 of them in their sweep of the battlefield after winning the ambush - mostly to the +2 platoon HQ which found some full woods and died hard. Overall, 1 green with rifles vs. 2 regular with SMGs, 4 to 1 win for the rifles because they had an ambush.

[Berlichtingen]

Just hammered Nidan again (not that its going to help in the long run). Made me think that there's a fundemental mistake in thinking about ambushes in CM. Ambush isn't a command, its a tactic you have to employ. To pull one off requires the player to control his units. I don't set cover arcs until the turn I want to initiate the ambush (assuming I don't just target the units myself).

In CMBO, the 'ambush' command was useless for what it was intended, but what it was good for was making sure your hidden troops didn't open fire before you wanted them to. You'd set an ambush point very close... and then cancel it when you wanted your troops to open fire.

Assuming decent quality troops, they will remain hidden even with an enemy squad almost on top of them (that wasn't true in CMBO). To orchestrate a truely devistating ambush, try to initiate fire from at least two directions. Squad weapons make almost no difference... your initial fire will break most (if not all) of the units in the target area... after that, its just a matter of killing

[tar]

Well, one way that gets better initial fire results is the difference in unit exposure based on their posture when fire is initiated. As long as units in run or walk are more exposed than when taking cover or using a command like advance, then all is well.

Shooting at targets unexpectedly usually means that you catch them all standing instead of using cover. After all, if they are using the available cover, then they aren't really walking into an ambush, are they?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by tar:

Shooting at targets unexpectedly usually means that you catch them all standing instead of using cover. After all, if they are using the available cover, then they aren't really walking into an ambush, are they?

You won't catch me using 'walk' or 'run' in open ground... unless its moving troops up from my rear. Move to contact through woods, rough, etc... short advances through open ground

[Nidan1]

I have noticed also that conditions of low visibility....such as darkness or thick fog, increases the effect of surprise fire on moving infantry.

Of course the new sneak rules can cause you even more harm when caught in an ambush, if your poor pixel troops start crawling towards the source of their pain, rather than away from it.

I believe that is a factor of the friendly map edge , which is determined by the scenario designer.

BTW, Berli did spring a nice ambush, but as he indicated it was a short lived moment of glory for his men, who are now being pounded into goulash after exposing their positions.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

I only use "run" over open ground, even over very short distances. Speed is more useful than power when infantry are in the open. . . .especially with your split squad on point.

"Advance" or "assualt" are for pushing forward in cover, when "move to contact" would otherwise keep your squad's forward motion at bay from some benign enemy LOS.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

I only use "run" over open ground, even over very short distances. Speed is more useful than power when infantry are in the open. . . .especially with your split squad on point.

"Advance" or "assualt" are for pushing forward in cover, when "move to contact" would otherwise keep your squad's forward motion at bay from some benign enemy LOS.

Run?! In the open?! That's guarenteed suicide if you come under fire. Run is the single worst mode to be in under fire

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

I only use "run" over open ground, even over very short distances. Speed is more useful than power when infantry are in the open. . . .especially with your split squad on point.

"Advance" or "assualt" are for pushing forward in cover, when "move to contact" would otherwise keep your squad's forward motion at bay from some benign enemy LOS.

Run?! In the open?! That's guarenteed suicide if you come under fire. Run is the single worst mode to be in under fire </font>

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

I only use "run" over open ground, even over very short distances. Speed is more useful than power when infantry are in the open. . . .especially with your split squad on point.

"Advance" or "assualt" are for pushing forward in cover, when "move to contact" would otherwise keep your squad's forward motion at bay from some benign enemy LOS.

Run?! In the open?! That's guarenteed suicide if you come under fire. Run is the single worst mode to be in under fire </font>

[Flenser]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

I only use "run" over open ground, even over very short distances. Speed is more useful than power when infantry are in the open. . . .especially with your split squad on point.

"Advance" or "assualt" are for pushing forward in cover, when "move to contact" would otherwise keep your squad's forward motion at bay from some benign enemy LOS.

It makes my left temple throb to say so, but WN is right on this one.

At a large distance it hardly matters how you're moving if you get hit by small arms, the effect is pretty slight. Might as well run if you can to get out of harms way and close the distance as fast as possible.

Short dashes from cover to cover using run generally work out better than an "advance" as it greatly limits your exposer to fire, i.e. a unit running will only get shot at once, an "advancing" one will likely get shot at several more times and may not even make it to the cover by the end of the round.

Might not be realistic, but it is what works within the confines of the game.

[MikeyD]

You've reminded me of my absolute most successful ambush technique. If you can at all use barbed wire, that increases exposure to about 90-100%. This works best in woods. Your men with cover arc - barbed wire line a short distance in front. The enemy will stumble on the wire before they can see it while your guys have all the benefits of being in deep cover. Carnage! Another place to put barbed wire is between buildings where the opponent finds himself in the wire in the open while you're in the opposite house.